Winchester .416 Rem Mag.

**TStone** · 30-12-2022, 11:22

My .416 rem mag drew first blood this morning, I shot a blue wildebeest bull at ±120 paces. The bull was angling away from me and the bullet entered in the crease behind the shoulder, just below the midline of the body and exited on the fleshy part of the opposite shoulder. At the shot the wildebeest jumped and when its hooves hit the ground it took off, looking considerably healthier than before it was shot.
It took about 60 or 70 meters before reality set in and it ran out of fuel. I used a 400gr Hornady DGX bullet (which I have been advised by several experienced ph's not to use on buffalo) loaded to a mv of 2260fps, the bullet punched a large entry hole and left a slightly larger exit hole. While I have seen lung tissue protrude from exit wounds, this is the first time that I've seen a piece of lung protruding from an entry wound. The blood spoor was easy to follow.

**Pirate** · 30-12-2022, 11:31

Mooi! I have to smile at your BWBs getting a bit healthier after being shot, seems to be a common thing

At that MV I'm guessing your pressures are relatively mild?

**Koebelwagen** · 30-12-2022, 11:52

Originally Posted by TStone

My .416 rem mag drew first blood this morning, I shot a blue wildebeest bull at ±120 paces. The bull was angling away from me and the bullet entered in the crease behind the shoulder, just below the midline of the body and exited on the fleshy part of the opposite shoulder. At the shot the wildebeest jumped and when its hooves hit the ground it took off, looking considerably healthier than before it was shot.
It took about 60 or 70 meters before reality set in and it ran out of fuel. I used a 400gr Hornady DGX bullet (which I have been advised by several experienced ph's not to use on buffalo) loaded to a mv of 2260fps, the bullet punched a large entry hole and left a slightly larger exit hole. While I have seen lung tissue protrude from exit wounds, this is the first time that I've seen a piece of lung protruding from an entry wound. The blood spoor was easy to follow.

Sounds like a good morning.

On the DGX, I was present when my friend shot his first buffalo with his .500NE. He was using 570gr DGX bonded for primary and DGS solids for backup shots. The first shot with a DGX bonded broke the shoulder and took the top off the heart before exiting on the far side, the second shot with the DGS wasn't really necessary but it entered just behind the rib cage and was lodged in the breast bone.

DGX come in two flavours, bonded and non-bonded, the poor reputation was formed with the non-bonded bullets. Kevin Robertson is featured in a Hornady video on Youtube about the DGX bonded performance on buffalo, he doesn't strike me as someone who would back a poor product for money's sake, knowing first hand how dangerous these animals are.

**TStone** · 30-12-2022, 12:30

@ Pirate - I used Riflex Blue for the loads and stopped just short of Somchem's suggested maximum velocities with S341.

@ Koebelwagen - The bullets I have is the bonded version. Earlier this year I guided a client using DGX bullets in a .375 H&H, he shot a sable and a buffalo. On the sable the bullet performed well, he shot the buffalo twice and both bullets broke up badly, although the buffalo expired quickly after the second shot. From what you say, I guess he was using the non-bonded version.

**Adoons** · 30-12-2022, 21:13

TStone, I have been present where a DGX non bonded from a 416 Rigby was used on an Eland cow. 40 m to impact. Fully broadside, hitting near shoulder. She dropped within 50 meters. Bullet exited with a ragged hole. Meat damage was really bad. Pieces of lead and copper was found in the shoulder that took the impact.

I would call what I saw without recovering the bullet spectacular bullet failure.

I bet that Rigby hurried it on to 2300-2400 fps.

DGX non bonded on Buffalo I would think can be suicidal from this once of experience I witnessed.

The bonded version I can only tell what the www says, and if the bonding quality and jacket thickness quality is to the same levels as Hornady Interbond 180 gr .30 Cal bullets, I would try them on some antelope and then decide. (I just love Interbonds. Since always.)

**TStone** · 31-12-2022, 06:56

Adoons, have you had a chance to shoot your .404 yet?

**Adoons** · 01-01-2023, 09:19

Morning TStone. Best wishes for you and all else reading for a prosperous 2023.

Yes, I did. If plinking "bad" pumpkins in a harvested land counts...

I had a few off hand shots at 20 - 80 meters on a few Hubbard squashes not fit for the market. No chronograph and measurements etc. Just some 404 plinking to get the hang of my rifle for starters. I used the 350 gr Peregrine VRG2 loaded rounds I purchased with the rifle. Recoil is really tame. A lot less than the previous 404's I shot, but all of them were on K98 actions with shorter barrels and thus a lot lighter than my rifle. Not 30-06 recoil that I am used to, but nothing flinch inducing. I hard long push but not kicking or hurting. It has a recoil tube as well. I am not a firm believer in them except for added weight, but maybe that is helping to get the kick into a push?

Accuracy is excellent if centre of hubbard squash from 20 - 80 meters with open sights is about right for testing and reporting purposes.

No cycling, feeding or extraction problems like a CZ550 should be.

I will shoot of some of the 450 gr African PH rounds I purchased sometimes this week and measure their speed and check accuracy better. I have never thought of the .404 to be used with less than 400 gr bullets, but I have those 350 gr VRG 2 and VRG 3 and a lot of Spartan 350 gr HP that came with it. As the rifle will be used mostly on plains game and pigs I will seriously consider using 350 gr after feeling this "pleasant" recoil and measuring speed. If it is decent, I will pull some of them and weigh the propellant and determine if it was S365 or not used by the previous owner and develop a load to be the same. I am just concerned that they were loaded for paper punching and maybe the speed is low. I am not confident as I have no experience with them, that VRG 3 will open up on plains game and not just punch a .423 Cal hole at lower velocities? A BWB with a high lung shot of .423 Cal passing through at 1800 fps might make for a long day inspecting the whole farm.... Will first run them through some warthog. Bullet recovery will not happen, but I should get a better idea of performance than on squash ha-ha.

For Buffalo I will opt for 400 - 450 gr. I cannot see myself having a rifle capable of shooting 400 - 450 gr and then using 350 gr on DG. Probably will be 450 gr in the end as 450 gr should give the best penetration as it is the better SD and weight vs Frontal area for a .423 bullet.

After the comments regarding the "bogus" Norma African PH ammo I have bought that they may even not be 450 gr I will not use them as potential "charge stopping" ammunition. Will use them for measurements, sighting in, plinking, hunting plains game and then reloading the brass with bullets and loads that have been tested. That was an expensive fault of "breaking my own rules" of buying ammo instead of loading them myself from scratch.

**TStone** · 01-01-2023, 12:56

Originally Posted by Adoons

I have never thought of the .404 to be used with less than 400 gr bullets, but I have those 350 gr VRG 2 and VRG 3 and a lot of Spartan 350 gr HP that came with it. As the rifle will be used mostly on plains game and pigs I will seriously consider using 350 gr after feeling this "pleasant" recoil and measuring speed. If it is decent, I will pull some of them and weigh the propellant and determine if it was S365 or not used by the previous owner and develop a load to be the same. I am just concerned that they were loaded for paper punching and maybe the speed is low. I am not confident as I have no experience with them, that VRG 3 will open up on plains game and not just punch a .423 Cal hole at lower velocities? A BWB with a high lung shot of .423 Cal passing through at 1800 fps might make for a long day inspecting the whole farm.... Will first run them through some warthog. Bullet recovery will not happen, but I should get a better idea of performance than on squash ha-ha.

In my experience with VRG-3's in the 7x57, 9.3x62 and .375 H&H they open well even at impact velocities of ±1800fps. I can't see that the .404 will be different. I have no experience with Spartan bullets.

Voorspoedige Nuwe Jaar!

**Adoons** · 01-01-2023, 13:38

If their design open up in 9,3x62 and 375 they will in .423 also. Thanks for that info. They might become my plains game hunting bullets of choice then as I am not planning to chase velocity and "buying local is lekker." Should it be that with the current loads and recoil I measure 2100 - 2200 fps MV with the 350 gr my 404 will be one sweet shooting hunting rifle!

**458Exp** · 01-01-2023, 15:05

Originally Posted by Adoons

If their design open up in 9,3x62 and 375 they will in .423 also. Thanks for that info. They might become my plains game hunting bullets of choice then as I am not planning to chase velocity and "buying local is lekker." Should it be that with the current loads and recoil I measure 2100 - 2200 fps MV with the 350 gr my 404 will be one sweet shooting hunting rifle!

Hi Adoons.

Here’s how my 404 400gr bullets performed on Buffalo. Velocity at muzzle is 2240fps

Shot at 80m quartering to just before the front leg and bullet found behind the opposite side’s ribs.

Shot behind the head through the spine as an insurance shot from 2m