Police spreading misinformation on Self Defence

**1911 Guy** · 18-10-2023, 10:20

Originally Posted by oafpatroll

That is completely untrue. Neither the (in)competency training material nor any act supports what you are saying. Waiting to get stabbed before you engage the threat with a firearm isn't just not required but it would also be quite far past the 'rather stupid' line.

On paper everyting sounds great, in reality us as gun owners are always the ones to get the brunt, it will come down to was it a plausible cause to defend. Did the knife welding perp really attack or was the perp just standing there. Sounds dumb i know! You have to really convince the judge that your life was in danger by the knife perp. If there is not enough evidence to prove that you were going to get stabbed, or already stabbed. Then murder case is on you.

**oafpatroll** · 18-10-2023, 10:30

Just stop. You don't need to prove that you were going to be stabbed. You need to be able to show you believed at the time that it was imminent. Your description of the waiting to be stabbed scenario is 100% non factual and posts like that might actually result in someone making a poor judgement call at just the wrong time.

**1911 Guy** · 18-10-2023, 10:50

I beg to differ, unless you sat infront of a court room explaining your intent as to why using your firearm was the last resort. Making a judgment call comes at a cost, lawyer up and have cash in the bank even if you are right, that's the sad reality.
Check some of the self defense/murder cases on here
https://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAKZPHC/2018/46.html

**oafpatroll** · 18-10-2023, 10:54

Originally Posted by 1911 Guy

I beg to differ, unless you sat infront of a court room explaining your intent as to why using your firearm was the last resort. Making a judgment call comes at a cost, lawyer up and have cash in the bank even if you are right, that's the sad reality.
Check some of the self defense/murder cases on here
https://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAKZPHC/2018/46.html

So you're sticking with your wait to get stabbed before shooting 'interpretation' then?

**SSP** · 18-10-2023, 10:56

Originally Posted by 1911 Guy

I beg to differ, unless you sat infront of a court room explaining your intent as to why using your firearm was the last resort. Making a judgment call comes at a cost, lawyer up and have cash in the bank even if you are right, that's the sad reality.
Check some of the self defense/murder cases on here
https://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAKZPHC/2018/46.html

Out of interest, do you carry a gun?

For what its worth, the legal defence of private defence was not raised in that case, but rather putative private defence.

**SLICK** · 18-10-2023, 11:04

Originally Posted by 1911 Guy

On paper everyting sounds great, in reality us as gun owners are always the ones to get the brunt, it will come down to was it a plausible cause to defend. Did the knife welding perp really attack or was the perp just standing there. Sounds dumb i know! You have to really convince the judge that your life was in danger by the knife perp. If there is not enough evidence to prove that you were going to get stabbed, or already stabbed. Then murder case is on you.

reminds me of that case in cpt a few yrs ago...not sure what happened or if court case still one.
dude shot a guy in his vehicle claiming he had a knife

**1911 Guy** · 18-10-2023, 11:09

Originally Posted by SSP

Out of interest, do you carry a gun?

Everyday

**SSP** · 18-10-2023, 11:15

Originally Posted by 1911 Guy

Everyday

I would strongly suggest that you consider getting a current copy of Snyman on Criminal Law and reading up, from an authority, on the law of private defence and its slightly retarded sibling, putative self defence.

**1911 Guy** · 18-10-2023, 11:17

Originally Posted by oafpatroll

So you're sticking with your wait to get stabbed before shooting 'interpretation' then?

Ofcourse not, I was just stating that sitting infront of a court room comes with consequences even though you are right for defending yourself. Mean no disrespect to your defense as to how a scenario can be interpreted.

**Daaf Malan** · 18-10-2023, 11:21

If an attacker is wielding a knife and threatening to stab you 50 meters away, and you shoot him then, chances are great that you will be charged for murder. But the scenario created by the Colonel, is that the victim has already been stabbed and the victim's life is in danger. So he is not correct.

In defence of the SAPS personnel, the training they are getting on situations like this, is feeble, to say the least. I recently had a discussion with a SAPS officer who, without hesitation, said that private contractors fighting crime, shoot way more criminals because the legal teams representing the private contractors in court are of far better quality than the advocates representing SAPS officers charged. This hesitation of SAPS to use firearms in volatile situations seen on social media confirms this. One can only assume that SAPS officers are threatened in training to use firearm force.

Unfortunately when you shoot someone in self defence in South Africa, a police docket is automatically opened and you are threated like a criminal for some time. It is also unfortunate that this Colonel could be the one that make a decision to charge you for murder or not.