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  1. #21
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    Default Re: question on SA knife laws

    I personally believe that a Person commits the crime, not an inanimate object, so making the judgement call based on actions/intent is preferable to banning every little thing thats not made of cotton wool. In the UK they want to ban pointy kitchen knives

    http://www.google.co.za/#hl=en&sourc...df121f4ce8a359

    Reminds me of the brilliant Simpsons episode where the aliens disarm humanity in the name of World Peace, but its actually a ploy to take over without resistance. Until someone finds a plank with a nail in it...

  2. #22

    Default Re: question on SA knife laws

    We have an old piece of legislation referring to dangerous weapons but it is a very grey area and generally up to the authorities on the scene
    I had a long discussion about this Act with a person who used to be in the old security police. Apart from the reasons already mentioned, he also indicated that the law was specifically written the way it was so that they (SAP back then) would have at least some lawful (huh?) grounds for detaining any person in their fight against the red danger (of Communists for the youngergeneration ;-)).

    So yes, in theory at least, you could be arrested if they found and axe at you house and they were looking for a reason to arrest you. The scary thing is that very few people are aware of this Act and nothing has been done to get it off the Law books.

    But back to the original post ... many of us carry multi tools almost everywhere we go and I have never had a problem in doing so and even in terms of the Dangerous Weapons Act, it would not be illegal as the blade is less than 10cm long (in most cases at least).

  3. #23

    Default Re: question on SA knife laws

    As discussed many time , banning items is useless. I serves no purpose.

    A good example is this report from the super nanny state. Note that the mother wants to keep her 18 year old of the streets because its dangerous. This in a country where hand guns and knives are illegal !!

    Bunch of tossers , the lot of them and that includes GFSA.

    The whole reason behind this sort of legislation is ineffective policing and a useless legal system.

    Three held after teenager shot dead and two youths stabbed in Peckham, south London

    Three people were being held by police today after a teenager was shot dead and two youths were stabbed on a housing estate in Peckham, south London.



    3:25AM GMT 30 Dec 2010


    Police found the 17-year-old gunshot victim in a stairwell at Heron House on the Pelican Estate at about 4.30pm on Wednesday following reports of an assault.

    He was pronounced dead at the scene.


    Officers also discovered a 17-year-old male at a nearby address in Gannet House suffering a stab wound. He was taken to a south London hospital where he is said to be in a stable condition.


    Following the discoveries, police were alerted to a third victim, an 18-year-old male, after he arrived at a separate south London hospital, also suffering from a stab wound. He was later discharged with minor injuries.

    ''Officers are treating all three incidents as linked at this early stage and three males have been arrested in connection with the investigation,'' said a Metropolitan Police spokesman.

    Related Articles

    • A large police cordon was put in place around the estate following the killing and teams of forensics officers began investigating the crime scenes for clues. Gannet House sits 50ft away from Heron House.
    A woman who lives on the estate said the area was dangerous and urged police to increase routine patrols.

    The mother of two, who did not want to be named, said the area used to have a problem with gangs which has returned after seemingly ending a few years ago.
    ''I think it's pathetic,'' she said.
    ''I keep my son indoors and he is 18. There's too much going on the streets. It's not safe here at all."

    ''The police should be patrolling round here more often.
    ''An innocent life has been taken away. How will his parents feel?''
    Another woman, who did not want to be named, said Heron House, where the victim died, was a magnet for troublemakers.
    ''They are out of control at Heron House. It's not a nice place to pass.''
    Local resident Samba Koroma, 40, said: ''We've got a lot of boys who come here to this estate. They just hang around. They are there every day and every night.''
    The cleaning manager said he understood from other people on the estate that before the 17-year-old was shot, he ran into Heron House and was knocking on a door at the end of an eighth floor corridor.
    Mr Koroma, who also lives on the eighth floor, said: ''He ran into the building. He was knocking on that door for somebody to open up but nobody opened the door.
    ''I don't know whether the boy knew the couple (who live there).
    ''He ran down the stairs and I think that's when he got shot.''
    The Pelican Estate has a mini football pitch and basketball court where gangs of youths congregate at night, residents said.
    Another neighbour said: ''I have lived here for a long time and experienced things like this before.
    ''It's not so much surprising because of what's happening with lots of young boys hanging around.
    ''The police and ambulance were everywhere before.
    ''When we went out they told us to go back inside.
    ''About four years ago there was a shooting here and someone got stabbed outside my window about 12 months ago.''

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8230933/Three-held-after-teenager-shot-dead-and-two-youths-stabbed-in-Peckham-south-London.html
    The myth of safe places : One of the lies sheeple tell themselves, to help make it through the day.
    Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket."

    While a 9 mm or .40 caliber bullet may or may not expand, it is an undeniable fact that a .45 caliber bullet will never shrink.

  4. #24

    Default Re: question on SA knife laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul View Post
    Ja...
    This whole DWA came about as a result of faction fighting and the IFP's attacks on the ANC and their so-called 'self defence units' immediately prior to and after 94. Remember "Traditional Weapons"?
    Not quite ;-) The DWA is actually a 1968 act. Promulgated long before the 1994 fighting.

    As far as I can tell the 1986 act is still in force and has not been repealed or replaced.

    The actual DWA, act 71 of 1968, can be found here http://www.saps.gov.za/docs_publs/le.../a71of1968.pdf
    It seems to be a relatively simple act which basically says the Minister of Safety & Security can publish notices (and withdraw the notices by a further notice) which prohibits people from possessing dangerous weapons at certain times or places. The DWA defines dangerous weapons as: 'dangerous weapon' means any object, other than a firearm, which is likely to cause serious bodily injury if it were used to commit an assault. So is really means anything except a firearm!

    There were 2 amendments to the DWA, one in 1990 which I cannot find an online copy for and one in 1993 which can be found here http://www.info.gov.za/view/DownloadFileAction?id=88314
    The amendments does not seem too much of a problem in my laymans opinion.

    A draft amendment for comment was published in 2008 which can be found here http://www.info.gov.za/view/DownloadFileAction?id=77037
    This draft has not officially been published as an amendment as far as I know. The content of this draft is problematic for armed citizens in my opinion.
    Some of the points I find problematic:

    • It proposes to prohibit the possession of DWs at ANY TIME in ANY place to which the PUBLIC has ACCESS including PUBLIC ROADS, RAILWAY STATIONS or PREMISES or any DEMONSTRATIONS or GATHERINGS. (This has the potential to be everywhere except on your property or in your car!)
    • It proposes to prohibit the manufacture, sale or supply or DWs. (Schedule 3 contains the conditions under which DWs can be sold: Over 18 years of age, prove identity, transaction recorded in a register with your name, ID, address & purpose for buying the DW!)
    • It proposes to prohibit the possession of any FIREARM (whether legally possessed and carried in accordance with the FCA or not) at gatherings or demonstrations, political rallies or meetings or any polling station during an election.

    Schedule 1 proposes to define DWs as

    Projectile discharging devices which are designed to discharge a
    projectile by means of compressed gas, compressed air or a spring,
    electrically or manually and whish is likely to cause serious bodily injury
    if used to commit an assault, including but not limited to BB guns,
    airsoft guns, bows and arrows, spear-guns, blowpipes and darts,
    hunting slings, slingshots and catapults.
    Sword;
    Bayonet;
    Baton;
    Spear or assegai;
    Panga;
    Cattle prod;
    Flick knife;
    Dagger;
    Knuckle knife;
    Trench knife;
    Throwing blade;
    Non-metal or ceramic knife;
    Tonfa;
    Throwing star;
    Any knife other than knifes mentioned above, the blade of which
    exceeds 10 centimetres; or
    Any other article, which is not a firearm, and which is made or modified
    to be used -
    (a) to injure or disable a person;
    (b) to cause a person to fear that someone will be injured or
    disabled by that use; or
    (c) for attack or defence in the practice of a martial sport, art or
    similar discipline.

    Incidentally, the 2008 notice about the draft amendment also contains a notice in Schedule 5 that repeals notice 1633 of 1 October 1996 that Frank alluded to earlier in this thread.

    So in conclusion, as far as I am aware, there is currently no prohibition on the carrying of DWs in public in South Africa and that includes knives with blades longer than 10 cm because the "1 Oct 1996 notice" has been repealed and the "2008 draft proposal" has not yet been enacted. Specific laws or regulations might prohibit certain objects in government buildings, the Gautrain, etc.

    You would probably have to argue this point in court as the average SAPS member would not have a clue about any of this when he catches you with that Raj II in your pocket

    Please bear in mind that this is just my layman's opinion on these matters and I would welcome any facts that might add or subtract from the above.
    "You don't step into the attack - You fucking detonate into it ." - Kelly McCann

  5. #25

    Default Re: question on SA knife laws

    A DRAFT would be just that - A draft cannot be anything else.


    Most importantly the the repeal you talk of is in the DRAFT and until the draft as a whole is promulgated it means nothing. It is after all just a notice for public comment


    So the 1968 act with its amendments and notices are certainly still very much law.



    STAATSKOERANT, 1 FEBRUARIE 2008 No. 30717 3

    NOTICE 158 OF 2008
    NOTICE FOR PUBLIC COMMENTS
    The South African Police Service is reviewing the present notices issued
    under the Dangerous Weapons Act, 1968 (Act No. 71 of 1968), with a view to
    requesting the Minister for Safety and Security to consider the issuing of a
    consolidated notice reflecting contemporary needs.
    The proposed Notice hereunder has been drafted for consultation purposes.
    An invitation is hereby extended to any person, or private or public institution
    which may have an interest to comment on the draft notice, within six weeks
    from the date of publication of this Gazette.
    The contents of the proposed Notice should not be regarded at this stage as
    reflecting any official policy or viewpoint and is intended solely for consultation
    purposes.
    Comments may be directed to:
    Postal address:
    Director J. Slabbert
    South African Police Service
    Legal Support: Crime Operations
    Private Bag X94
    PRETORIA
    0001
    E-mail: westerveldn@saps.org.za
    Street address:
    Room No. 34
    3rd Floor
    Presidia Building
    255 Pretorius Street
    Cr. Paul Kruger and Pretorius Street
    PRETORIA
    4 No. 30717 GOVERNMENT GAZElTE, 1 FEBRUARY 2008


    PROPOSED NOTICE UNDER SECTIONS 2 AND 3 OF THE
    DANGEROUS WEAPONS ACT, 1968 (ACT NO. 71 OF 1968)
    GOVERNMENT NOTICE NO. Date:
    1. Whereas I, Charles Nqakula, Minister for Safety and Security is of the
    opinion that the objects specified in Schedule 1 are dangerous
    weapons, I hereby -
    (a) under section 2(2) of the Dangerous Weapons Act, 1968,
    prohibit any person to be in possession at any time of any object
    specified in Schedule 1 at any place to which the public
    generally has access to, including any public road, railway
    station or premises, or at any demonstration or gathering
    defined in section 1 of the Regulation of Gatherings Act, 1993
    (Act No. 205 of 1993);
    (b) under section 3(1) of the Dangerous Weapons Act, 1968,
    prohibit the manufacture, sale or supply of the objects specified
    in Schedule 1 ; and
    (c) under section 2(3) of the Dangerous Weapons Act, 1968,
    prohibit the possession of any firearm as defined in section 1 of
    the Firearms Control Act, 2000 (Act No. 60 of 2000), or any
    replica of a firearm, whether legally possessed and carried in
    accordance with the Firearms Control Act, 2000, or not, at any
    gathering or demonstration as defined in section 1 of the
    Regulation of Gatherings Act, 1993, any political rally or
    meeting, or at any polling station during an election in terms of
    the Electoral Act, 1998 (Act No. 73 of 1998);
    STAATSKOERANT, 1 FEBRUARIE 2008 No. 30717 5
    2. The prohibition in -
    item 1 (a) shall be subject to the exemptions specified in
    Schedule 2:
    item 1 (b) shall be subject to the exemptions specified in
    Schedule 3;
    item l(c) shall be subject to the exemptions specified in
    Schedule 4.
    3. 1 hereby, under section 2(5) of the Dangerous Weapons Act, 1968,
    repeal the previous notices issued under section 2 of the said Act,
    specified in Schedule 5.
    Signed at
    Thousand and Eight.
    on this day of Two
    C. NQAKULA
    MINISTER FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY
    GOVERNMENT GAZE-E, 1 FEBRUARY 2008

    SCHEDULE 1
    OBJECTS WHICH ARE IN THE OPINION OF THE MINISTER
    DANGEROUSWEAPONS
    Projectile discharging devices which are designed to discharge a
    projectile by means of compressed gas, compressed air or a spring,
    electrically or manually and whish is likely to cause serious bodily injury
    if used to commit an assault, including but not limited to BB guns,
    airsoft guns, bows and arrows, spear-guns, blowpipes and darts,
    hunting slings, slingshots and catapults.
    Sword;
    Bayonet;
    Baton;
    Spear or assegai;
    Panga;
    Cattle prod;
    Flick knife;
    Dagger;
    Knuckle knife;
    Trench knife;
    Throwing blade;
    Non-metal or ceramic knife;
    Tonfa;
    Throwing star;
    Any knife other than knifes mentioned above, the blade of which
    exceeds 10 centimetres; or
    Any other article, which is not a firearm, and which is made or modified
    to be used -
    (a) to injure or disable a person;
    (b) to cause a person to fear that someone will be injured or
    disabled by that use; or
    (c) for attack or defence in the practice of a martial sport, art or
    similar discipline.
    STAATSKOERANT, 1 FEBRUARIE 2008 No. 30717 7


    SCHEDULE 2
    EXEMPTIONS IN RESPECT OF THE PROHIBITION
    IN ITEM l(a) OF THIS NOTICE
    UNDER SECTION 2(2) OF THE ACT
    1. Any conduct for the purposes only of making the objects referred to in
    Schedule 1 available for one or more of the following purposes:
    For the purpose of a museum or gallery;
    for the purposes of theatrical performances and of rehearsals of
    such performances;
    for the production of films as referred to in the Films and
    Publications Act, 1966:
    for the production of television programmes;
    for the pursuit of any lawful employment, duty or activity;
    for the participation in any lawful sport, recreation or
    entertainment;
    for the legitimate collection, display or exhibition of weapons; or
    for the possession for the sale or supply of objects specified in
    Schedule 1, in accordance with this notice.
    2. The possession of any object specified in Schedule 1, by any member
    the South African Police Service as defined in section 1 of the
    South African Police Service Act, 1995 (Act No. 68 of 1995);
    the South African National Defence Force, as defined in section
    1 of the Defence Act, 2002 (Act No. 42 of 2002);
    the Department of Correctional Services, as defined in section 1
    of the Correctional Services Act, 1998 Act No. 11 1 of 1998) ;
    any peace officer defined in section 1 of the Criminal Procedure
    Act, 1977 (Act No. 51 of 1977);
    8 No. 30717 GOVERNMENT GAZETTE, 1 FEBRUARY 2008
    (e) any metropolitan or municipal police officer contemplated in
    section 64 of the South African Police Service Act, 1995 (Act
    No. 68 of 1995); or
    (f) a security service provider as defined in the Private Security-
    Industry Regulation Act. 2001 (Act No. 56 of 2001),
    in the performance of his or her duties, of any object determined
    in Schedule 1.


    SCHEDULE 3
    EXEMPTIONS IN RESPECT OF THE PROHIBITION
    IN ITEM l(b) OF THIS NOTICE
    UNDER SECTION 3(2) OF THE ACT
    Under section 3(2) of the Dangerous Weapons Act, 1968, the following
    exemptions shall be applicable to the prohibition in paragraph l(2) of this
    notice:
    Any object specified in Schedule 1, may be sold or supplied only from a
    registered business premises which does not include any open air, street or
    flea market, on condition that it may be sold only -
    (a) to a person who is older than 18 years;
    (b) to a person who identifies himself or herself by means of a green
    bar-coded identity document;
    (c) if the transaction is recorded in a register kept for that purpose,
    reflecting the full names, address and identity number of the buyer
    and the purpose for which it is bought;
    (d) if the register is kept available for inspection, and inspection thereof
    by a police officer is allowed at any time during business hours;
    (e) if the transaction is performed face-to-face and not by mail, post or
    internet order;
    STAATSKOERANT, 1 FEBRUARIE 2008 No. 30717 9

    SCHEDULE 4
    EXEMPTIONS IN RESPECT OF THE PROHIBITION
    IN ITEM 1(C) UNDER SECTION 2(3) OF THE ACT
    1. An imitation firearm which is brightly coloured in orange or green or a
    combination thereof, or made of a transparent material; or to which is
    permanently affixed a blaze orange plug inserted in the barrel thereof,
    is exempted from the prohibition. Such plug shall be recessed no more
    than six millimetres from the muzzle-end of the barrel of such imitation
    firearm.
    2. The possession of any object contemplated in item l(c) by a member
    the South African Police Service as defined in section 1 of the
    South African Police Service Act, 1995 (Act No. 68 of 1995);
    the South African National Defence Force, as defined in section
    1 of the Defence Act, 2002 (Act No 42 of 2002);
    the Department of Correctional Services, as defined in section 1
    of the Correctional Services Act, 1998 Act No. 11 1 of 1998) ;
    any peace officer defined in section 1 of the Criminal Procedure
    Act, 1977 (Act No. 51 of 1977);
    any metropolitan or municipal police officer contemplated in
    section 64 of the South African Police Service Act, 1995 (Act
    No. 68 of 1995); or
    a security service provider as defined to in the Private Security-
    Industry Regulation Act, 2001 (Act No. 56 of 2001),
    in the performance of his or her duties.
    10 No. 3071 7 GOVERNMENT GAZElTE, 1 FEBRUARY 2008

    SCHEDULE 5
    NOTICES REPEALED
    The following notices are repealed under section 2(5) of the Dangerous
    Weapons Act, 1 968:
    1 929 1 13883 / 19 March 1 992 I
    Notice No. Government Gazette No.
    1487
    Date
    1633
    17413 2 September 1996
    17490 1 October 1996
    The myth of safe places : One of the lies sheeple tell themselves, to help make it through the day.
    Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket."

    While a 9 mm or .40 caliber bullet may or may not expand, it is an undeniable fact that a .45 caliber bullet will never shrink.

  6. #26

    Default Re: question on SA knife laws

    Agreed 100% about the act and amendments still being in place. I however read the repeal notices as being separate from the rest. On reading it again I would concur with you that the repeal notices are part of the proposed notice. Kind-of obvious in hindsight if you consider it is included as point 3 in the "PROPOSED notice".

    I will write it off as a blond moment on my side ;-)

    OK so the act, amendments and notice 1633 specifically still stand. I do see that notice 1633 only prohibits the possession of DWs at gatherings in or at public places. So possession of DWs at gatherings in or at private places or in public places where there is no gathering should still be legal?
    "You don't step into the attack - You fucking detonate into it ." - Kelly McCann

  7. #27

    Default Re: question on SA knife laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Rudes View Post
    . So possession of DWs at gatherings in or at private places or in public places where there is no gathering should still be legal?
    As long as its not public. i.e. there will be no problem with a collection of swords and spears kept at home.
    The myth of safe places : One of the lies sheeple tell themselves, to help make it through the day.
    Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket."

    While a 9 mm or .40 caliber bullet may or may not expand, it is an undeniable fact that a .45 caliber bullet will never shrink.

  8. #28

    Default Re: question on SA knife laws

    The 2008 Draft was not approved due to the Knife Makers Guild Involvement and many other knife sellers.

    One of the key issues discussed at the meetings was that the Draft stipulated a Legal South AFrican Identification Document in order to sell a knife.

    Since most of the knife makers sell to the international market international trade would not have been possible. This meant the whole industry in South Africa might have collapsed since the majority of people in South Africa feel that a decent knife is still under R100.

    The Draft was not approved and therefore is not a legal binding document.

    I personally feel that we have one of the best legislation there is since it limits the list of banned items and talks about intent.

    If one does the legwork on international knife forums one will realise that the lists of knives banned (in Britain one is not allowed a locking blade....this INCLUDES LEATHERMANS!), a +3 inch blade etc. and still they have a problem with knife crimes.

    Having a list of knives that are legal and illegal will not be taken serious by any criminal because they chose to do crime. There is a problem with their social fabric.

    This is where I feel since our Act talks about intent, a person that is stopped, has a criminal record, is drunk, or is busy causing .... and still carrying a knife 10 cm + or a panga/axe should be judged by the officer in that situation. (note an officer here means a non corrupted, good and true officer)

    IMO laws are there for those without a moral compass. We here I believe do have one and therefore having a list of knives one can and cant carry is limiting the law abiding people. No criminal gives a crap about a law. The law as it stands now states I cant carry a knife larger then a 10cm blade. I oblige to this. I am sure going to object to any new law limiting more and more knives as this is my right and I feel that intent of carrying is a far larger concern then what is carried! A person can get in a car with the intent to kill....

  9. #29
    User Paul's Avatar
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    Default Re: question on SA knife laws

    Quote Originally Posted by marthinus View Post
    IMO laws are there for those without a moral compass. We here I believe do have one and therefore having a list of knives one can and cant carry is limiting the law abiding people. No criminal gives a crap about a law. The law as it stands now states I cant carry a knife larger then a 10cm blade. I oblige to this. I am sure going to object to any new law limiting more and more knives as this is my right and I feel that intent of carrying is a far larger concern then what is carried! A person can get in a car with the intent to kill....
    Meh. Legislating for the man and not the item will NEVER work...
    "Always remember to pillage before you burn"
    Unknown Barbarian

  10. #30
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    Default Re: question on SA knife laws

    Quote Originally Posted by FrankH View Post
    two youths were stabbed on a housing estate ...
    I assume a "housing estate" is the British equivalent of a trailer park or the "projects"?

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