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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Class action law suit registration: Private Citizens vs. SAPS

    I'm in. Good idea. Make it easier for people that have already gone through the competency nightmare to obtain guns/replace guns.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Class action law suit registration: Private Citizens vs. SAPS

    I would very much like to be a fly on the wall when they have to start finding my 5 year old file and apps for 2 collector licences.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Class action law suit registration: Private Citizens vs. SAPS

    Not really constructive...


    Would Love to join this but being between jobs currently i honestly can afford the bare minimum...


    Wish you all well & Best of luck

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Class action law suit registration: Private Citizens vs. SAPS

    PIVO - you have a valid point. Rather focus on one or two sure-fire arguments than take a shotgun approach that may increase the time and the costs with possibly less chance of a succesful outcome. However if we only focus on DSS we may lose a lot of potential support from those citzens purely looking at SD or occasional sport shooting, so I think we need to work towards a solution that would benefit both groups. More inclusive = more support.

    I think we should discuss here what the most desirable and practical outcome would be for us as firearm owners/enthusiasts and then get input from the lawyers on what the best argument, approach and course of action would be to achieve that outcome.

    BBT4E - I happen to be in the same boat currently, kind of surviving hand to mouth but I can offer my time as well as funds - just stop drinking for a while (wow, I can't believe I just said that!)

    All inputs would be appreciated. Even if you just follow this thread and give your input it would be of help in making us think differently on things etc.

    I discussed with Arno and will start compiling a database of interested people - I already listed all the users who indicated that they would be interested. Just give us a bit of time to decide on what info we'll need initially and I'll then post a request for details.

    I think as a first step we should look at setting up an informal meeting of all who can attend to discuss and define our approach to the lawyers, however if Paul can get more info from them in the meantime it would be very helpful, or maybe Gidsie can help? I am thinking advice as to on what basis we approach the courts (administrative justice, constitutional rights etc), what our arguments are and what our demands are.

    At this stage I think we all agree on one point: we would be interested and willing, depending on the costs involved. That is the reality of life and unless anybody can get a Rupert or an Oppenheimer on board I dont think that that will change. However, we can answer that question by outlining our case and getting a cost estimate from the lawyers which would then give us a basis from which to 'market' this initiative, be it word of mouth, press releases, flyers etc. Advertising always sounds good but it is very, very expensive and may just eat our limited funds.





    So let's:
    1. get a database started of interested parties;
    2. define our approach and arguments in consultation with the lawyers on this forum and the firm Paul and Gidsie has contact with;
    3. get a cost estimate;
    4. decide collectively on how to save and manage the required funds while the case is ongoing;
    5. decide and formulate the mandate, responsibilities and limits of use of the funds and investment income from it;
    6. calculate our contribution needs; and
    7. work at getting the required support.
    And this time, let's not rest until we GET IT DONE!
    Last edited by JS4; 20-02-2011 at 11:44. Reason: hung over

  5. #25
    User Paul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Class action law suit registration: Private Citizens vs. SAPS

    Guys... re the costs...

    If we can use the firm that works on a contingency there is NO COST involved at all.

    Depending on what we ask for ... a settlement, an order to compel, a combination of these.

    F'rinstance... If we structure the suit so that we seek the courts to instruct the Min of Police to issue our licenses and competencies, and also to compensate us for the (extraordinary - additional security we have been forced to install in the absence of the firearm, whatever... get creative...) expenses we have incurred thus far, then, in all likelihood the court will rule in our favour and award costs to us. Our attorneys get their pound of flesh out of the costs award, and take a portion of any damages award we are awarded to compensate them for the risk they ran on our behalf. We may get a couple of pennies of our expenses back, but more importantly we get the licenses and competencies.
    "Always remember to pillage before you burn"
    Unknown Barbarian

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Class action law suit registration: Private Citizens vs. SAPS

    My 2 cents - the most important issue is to get CFR and the Appeal Board to do their work expediently, justly and correctly, professionally, objectively and transparrently. The professionals in admin law can guide in the objectives.

    Stick to administrative justice.

    Do not settle out of court - go to court and get a court order so that others can use a precedent.
    Last edited by DS; 20-02-2011 at 19:02.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Class action law suit registration: Private Citizens vs. SAPS

    Khumba is right. Local Police stations are doing good job, at least in my neighborhood. Provincial Police are as efficient. CFR administration is the issue.

    JS4, exactly right. I would be aiming to achieve a string of consecutive court orders that give subsequent applicants a leg to stand on. Just like the Seq21 case gave us 7-days turnaround (target).

    However, I still believe that we should start with the highest probability cases that give us precedent that we can leverage in subsequent cases. One makulu case might not serve our cause, but will aggravate the regulating body.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Class action law suit registration: Private Citizens vs. SAPS

    I am in

  9. #29
    Member abhm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Class action law suit registration: Private Citizens vs. SAPS

    I hope this works and believe it a great idea, I hope it develops more traction than when it was last floated
    I am studying an awesome brand of leg fighting which was inspired by dung beetles and I think my brand of Kraft Manure is superior to all other styles ever invented. Furthermore I challenge all other manurists to a rolling contest where we shall establish whose manure ball is the biggest! I shall call it Honest Kraft Manure and declare it superior to all other brands of manure and will tell you that I have claimed the lineage directly to Imshi the great Dragon Kru Master Beetler who invented manuring, by gathering all manure from different animals together and making it work as the worlds most effective fertilizer. I proved myself by being members of not one but three super elite special gardening departments who were responsible for spreading manure to combat weed infestations!

  10. #30
    †RIP ArnoG26's Avatar
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    Default Re: Class action law suit registration: Private Citizens vs. SAPS

    Quote Originally Posted by Khumba View Post
    My 2 cents - the most important issue is to get CFR and the Appeal Board do their work expediently, justly and correctly, professionally, objectively and transparrently. The professionals in admin law can guide in the objectives.

    Stick to administrative justice.

    Do not settle out of court - go to court and get a court order so that others can use a precedent.
    I agree!

    ---------- Post added at 15:44 ---------- Previous post was at 15:44 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul View Post
    Guys... re the costs...

    If we can use the firm that works on a contingency there is NO COST involved at all.

    Depending on what we ask for ... a settlement, an order to compel, a combination of these.

    F'rinstance... If we structure the suit so that we seek the courts to instruct the Min of Police to issue our licenses and competencies, and also to compensate us for the (extraordinary - additional security we have been forced to install in the absence of the firearm, whatever... get creative...) expenses we have incurred thus far, then, in all likelihood the court will rule in our favour and award costs to us. Our attorneys get their pound of flesh out of the costs award, and take a portion of any damages award we are awarded to compensate them for the risk they ran on our behalf. We may get a couple of pennies of our expenses back, but more importantly we get the licenses and competencies.
    Paul I will phone you tomorrow if its ok?
    "He who makes a beast of himself, gets rid of the pain of being a man…"

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