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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Sierra .308 165 gr. HPBT

    Then I guess the marine snipers have got it wrong, trying to kill with match bullets. ;D
    I'm sorry but I cannot understand what the big deal is. Berger VLD's have a thinner jacket than SMK's and they are recommended for hunting. Im not saying that you should hunt an elephant with a .222 52gr SMK, but anything that you can cleanly kill with a premium bonded/monometal/a frame bullet can be killed just as fast with an SMK.

    I shot 3 sprinbuck and a blesbuck with my 22-250 with 55gr bergers this week and none of them ran one meter, the reason - their brains were lying next to them. Just as dead as if they were hit by my 30-06 with 165gr Accubonds. At very high velocities a poorly placed shot at short distances might give you trouble, but bullet performance cannot make up for bad shot placement.

    I usually hunt in the FS and Northern Cape shot are seldom taken under 100m, some shots on sprinbuck are at 250m+. I would rather have maximum accuracy than a bullet that can penetrate through the animal and the tree behind it, but gives bigger than MOA accuracy. I have never wounded an animal due to bullet failure, only due to poor shot placement.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Sierra .308 165 gr. HPBT

    "Then I guess the marine snipers have got it wrong, trying to kill with match bullets. Grin"

    The difference is that with AP use one wants extreme bullet reaction. I prefer to not have that on game to save as much meat as possible and to guard against bullet frag when hitting bone resulting in possibly not getting the animal down quickly and painlessly.

    This is absolutely not he main objective with AP bullets.

    Hornady A-Max 155gr is known (as per Doc Roberts reports) to be an extremely effective AP bullet but it would not work well on AP if it needs to do some barrier penetration - with barrier penetration bonded bullets are advised by those who know.

    Using the Sierras or Bergers on head shots is one thing but something very different on body shots. Head shots are not every hunters cup of tea and on my farm and unless I know the hunter very well I will not allow head shots. I have seen the results of head shots gone wrong and most of the time the hunter thinks he has missed md217

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Sierra .308 165 gr. HPBT

    Quote Originally Posted by Longshot
    I'm sorry but I cannot understand what the big deal is.
    The big deal is that the multi-million dollar companies companies and the boffins employed by these companies that have through massive and expensive R&D designed, manufactured and marketed these (match) bullet are telling you in no uncertain terms "do not use this match bullet on game". The big deal is that the people that have killed more animals than anthrax, cancer and foot & mouth combined, who are employed and paid for their opinion, are writing in their professional capacity and as a reference "do not use this match bullet on game". Yet, in all respect Longshot, you chose to pooh-pooh their advice, nay their instruction and warning, based on your limited (in comparison) experience in the field?! If you can't understand this and choose to ignore this then I cannot explain it in any other manner so that you can understand it. Live long and prosper Longshot. I would, however, urge those who following this thread and who are perhaps undecided whether to use match bullets on game or not, to rather listen to those that are paid for an opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Longshot
    I would rather have maximum accuracy than a bullet that can penetrate through the animal and the tree behind it, but gives bigger than MOA accuracy.
    I have yet to hunt trees but I think you're confusing penetration (solely) with overall hunting bullet performance on game. Performance isn't just about penetration, uniform / reliable expansion or accuracy. On a match bullet the scale is tipped towards the latter (i.e. accuracy) as its raison d'ętre is accuracy uber-alles. And on a game bullet it's tipped towards the former (i.e. penetration and expansion) as it's death uber-alles. When you're shooting an animal with vitals being 6"+ (e.g. springbok) in size at 100 - 200 yards then shooting super accurate sub-MOA groups at that distance (esp. if you know your rifle and bullet performance) means very little if you are there to kill an animal. Yes, you may be super accurate with your match bullet, but on game (given the size of the target / vitals and the knowledge of your gear) all that super-accuracy is really not required. What is required is killing power = penetration and expansion, which is what a match bullet generally isn't designed for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Longshot
    I have never wounded an animal due to bullet failure
    Yet... It's like saying: I haven't wrapped myself around a lamp-pole while driving under the influence so driving under the influence proves that it's safe and that I can.

    FWIW, I don't do heads shots on game. Ruins the trophy and other than to prove how accurate I am, why go for a 2" target when you have a perfectly large, juicy and deadly 6" target at the same distance? Personal preference I suppose.

    Oh yes, and by the way hjk hjk hjk hjk hjk hjk hpy180

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Sierra .308 165 gr. HPBT

    Sorry for hijacking your thread. What was the result of the hunt? How did the bullets perform?

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Sierra .308 165 gr. HPBT

    another reason why head shots are a bad idea: the head is the most mobile part of the body. Lets say the moment you pull that trigger he lifts his head then you wil have a wounded buck that wil die of starvation or infection if you dont shoot again. Like a pmp rep once told me: "al wat viniger hardloop as i bok met i kakebeen is een sonder i kakebeen". The only place where is see it fit to try headshots is at night whith a spotlite when culling as they the seem to stand still when the lite is on them.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Sierra .308 165 gr. HPBT

    Quote Originally Posted by Longshot
    Sorry for hijacking your thread. What was the result of the hunt? How did the bullets perform?
    Explosively!  I've mentioned their performance on game on other threads (http://www.gunsite.co.za/forum/index...25317#msg25317 and http://www.gunsite.co.za/forum/index...22226#msg22226) and can post pictures here but beware... there will be blood...  :-X

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Sierra .308 165 gr. HPBT

    I love this matchking debate - it gets the blood going! My two cents worth is that I know several chaps who shoot smk and not one has ever given up on the practice. It is the only bullet I use in my 270. The 135gr matchking has a thicker jacket than the 130gr Hornady SST which I tried and found disappointing. My 135gr smks have shot several big animals already and we have tracked none. You see - the matchkings are hollowpoints that penetrate like needles and only then open - soft points start opening on impact and can lead to bullet failure in poorly constructed bullets. BTW - the Sierra 165 HPBT is not a match bullet but is in fact a gameking bullet. The match bullet is the 168gr HPBT and it is a potent hunting bullet. Go and ask the two kudus that died last week in Richmond but do not expect an answer because they are dead! The 85gr hpbt is also a gameking but I read somewhere that it was a match bullet that the folk used very successfully on whitetails so they were reclassified as gamekings with very little alteration to the structure. The only difference as far I can see between the hpbt sgk and smk is the size of the hole in the tip! I nearly gave up on hunting with smks but was persuaded to carry on and i am glad I did. I have found all the criticism to be unfounded - but that is just the opinion of a layman who has been using them for 4 years and been hunting for 16! Apparently there are guys out there who have been shooting for far longer and shot thousands of animals and they say it does not work. How come it then works for me? Do I have to shoot thousands of animals before 1 fails and then I say AH HA! YOU SEE - it does not work!! I am not trying to convince you to use them but rather explaining why i use them and that they work as well if not better than ordinary softpoints. If you do not believe me then try it for yourself and I will applaud you and buy you a beer (several beers more likely) and then we can talk on an even footing. I await intelligent replies not emotional junk about real sportsmen and ethics (these topics are so subjective and infact beyond definition). Please tell me why you think it is wrong to use SMKs on game and please do not quote the manufacturer (as weird as that may sound) but rather give me your own findings. Berger changed their opinion when they listended to their clients and now market their match bullets as game bullets - makes you think doesn't it!

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Sierra .308 165 gr. HPBT

    Quote Originally Posted by dave schenck
    I await intelligent  replies not emotional junk about real sportsmen and ethics (these topics are so subjective and infact beyond definition). Please tell me why you think it is wrong to use SMKs on game and please do not quote the manufacturer (as weird as that may sound) but rather give me your own findings.
    As per my previous post I can't give you my own findings as I haven't tried using Match bullets on game and I don't intend to use them for this purpose.  I use game bullets on game and match bullets for matches?!  I put petrol on my bakkie and milk in my coffee without having to try otherwise to see if there's a difference because someone on a forum says so  :)   I also believe that drinking too much beer and driving is bad and that smoking cigarettes may give you cancer.  Why do I unquestioningly believe this?  Because it says so on the bottle / pack and adhering to this advice may save my life.

    Back to your original post, this isn't really a debate in the real sense and as I've said, I don't really have a basis for my opinion and practice (see above and previous posts of mine) other than to follow what is advised / instructed by the manufacturers of the products we use.  I tend to do that with guns, ammo, explosives and things that can cause pain, suffering, massive bloodloss and / or death, incl. and esp. my own!  With all due respect Dave, you're just a name on a forum who is offering / marketing advice based on your limited personal experience hunting a small amount and variety of game in an unscientific environment.  Your advice runs contrary to what they say.  Who are "they"?  They are the multimillion dollar corporations spending millions of dollars on R&D who say quite categorically "don't use our match bullets on game".  They are also paid professionals and gun writers with years of practical hunting experience in the field.  Excuse me if I go with the safe bet on this one.  And I really don't mean this disrespectfully as clearly you've hunted quite a bit and with great success.  I'm just trying to illustrate why I thinking punting the use of match bullets on game, when the industry and professionals advise otherwise, is rash.

    I know you didn't want to hear the manufacturer's opinion on this question is, but here it is, straight from Sierra Bullets in answer to this very same question:

    "We don't recommend it (using match bullets on game). MatchKing bullets are designed with only one consideration; to produce the most consistently accurate bullet possible. This is done without regard to how the bullet will behave after impact, as the bullet has accomplished its mission at that point. Bullets intended for hunting use must be designed with terminal performance in mind, since their job begins on impact. Featuring heavier jackets, different nose profiles, Power Jacket skiving, double taper jacket designs, etc., Sierra's hunting bullets are designed to give deep, controlled expansion. Use match bullets for matches, and hunting bullets for hunting.".

    The last sentence is the take-home message IMO.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Sierra .308 165 gr. HPBT

    All I can say is +100 deonh. I agree.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Sierra .308 165 gr. HPBT

    I respect your point of view but how do you explain the position that Berger bullets have taken. You speak of big companies doing research - Berger did that and now promote the use of hunting with match bullets. This is contrary to what you say but you make no mention of it! A berger VLD and SMK are VERY similar bullets - I think they use the same jackets! Please clear this up for me using the same argument about research from the manufacturer. I really would love you guys on a hunt where we shoot Kudu with SMKs - you will be amazed.

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