A discussion on Religion, Politics and the blue light tear aways!

**abhm** · 09-04-2009, 08:33

Forget the beer COFFEE COFFEE COFFEE

**FrankH** · 09-04-2009, 08:38

What!!!! md217 md217 md217 md217 No beer ??? Now your getting me all worked up! fighting0035 fighting0035

hpy194 hpy194 hpy194 hpy194 hpy194

**abhm** · 09-04-2009, 08:43

Ask Ikor, Geoff, Mike, Boerbok, Big T or Swattie I am a coffee fiend no donuts though!

**Anwar** · 09-04-2009, 08:52

Originally Posted by abhm

2 years Frank. Ok apologies for the shortness. The area is somewhat of a passion of mine.
Good books start with the bear went over the mountain. Give me a few hours and I will get you a reading list together. Wrt the TBan. As many such organizations they use religion as a convenient excuse to hide other motives. Afghanistan is an incredibly tribal and clannish place and its easier to contextualize by thinking of the TBan as a Pashtun extremist group. Its a simplistic analogy but think of them kind of like the IFP. Of course their actions are far removed from the Pashtunwali code but they are an extremist organization. Yes I am sure there are members who enjoyed US support albeit indirectly but as an organization their initial support came from Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Pakistan now mainly from the opium trade and Iran of course there was US interaction with them prior to the fall Afghanistan is strategic real estate and they had the stinger buy back program so yes there was engagement but no direct support again a simplistic explanation. A full briefing would take about 8 hours and unless you have meeting place on your pc or a hankering to drive down to PTA it would be difficult. The entire Pashtun area is extremely complex and even when you know it you can often not understand it. I have a very good friend an ex col in the Pakistani Military. Used to be Big M's ADC he took me through this for a week before I got all the intricacies. If you have a sincere interest I have a good friend who lives near Ohrigstad who could walk you through this

Ok, been quiet for a long time on this issue. As for the Taliban, who labelled them as extremist, terrorist, etc. What are the meanings of these words. Learn the history of the Taliban first and then you will know who they are, but even the history you learn has been dictated to you by the enemies of the Taliban and yes, your friends the press. If you do not know Islam, which I assure you, you do not know, don't say they use religion for alternate motives. For somebody who comes across as fair and somewhat knowledgeable, you sure prove otherwise when reading your discourses. You have preconceptions that was programmed in you, and you show this in all your statements.
This sort of topic should be moderated and removed. I think religion and politics (accept for gun politics) should never have any appearance on this forum. It's very easy to moderate and remove other members threads. As a moderator you should know better than to make those statements, or does the rules only apply to others?
Please excuse my attitude, but don't discuss things that will offend others especially religion and politcs (accept gun politcs of course).

**abhm** · 09-04-2009, 12:25

Originally Posted by Anwar

Ok, been quiet for a long time on this issue. As for the Taliban, who labelled them as extremist, terrorist, etc. What are the meanings of these words. Learn the history of the Taliban first and then you will know who they are, but even the history you learn has been dictated to you by the enemies of the Taliban and yes, your friends the press. If you do not know Islam, which I assure you, you do not know, don't say they use religion for alternate motives. For somebody who comes across as fair and somewhat knowledgeable, you sure prove otherwise when reading your discourses. You have preconceptions that was programmed in you, and you show this in all your statements.
This sort of topic should be moderated and removed. I think religion and politics (accept for gun politics) should never have any appearance on this forum. It's very easy to moderate and remove other members threads. As a moderator you should know better than to make those statements, or does the rules only apply to others?
Please excuse my attitude, but don't discuss things that will offend others especially religion and politcs (accept gun politcs of course).

Now Anwar here is where we need to differ firstly Frank asked a question and after a bit of toing and froing he got an answer

Let me answer a few of your points as thus
1stly you say I cannot know the history and even if I were it would somehow be tainted because it did not (you assume) agree with your viewpoint?
2ndly you assume I have no knowledge of Islam
3rdly you ask me to define trrorism and extremism and ask me why I would define the Taliban as an organization defined under such

ok so point 1, I am a serious student of history, I take my fact base from a huge amount of opions on a subject, conduct the effort to become aware of the issues, analyse the picture in its entirety, hence your argument precedes a circular argument and is as much true from your viewpoint as it is of mine!
Please also tell me what would make the clerics to whom I listened incorrect as opposed to your view, I was a guest in their land to whom they in accordance with the Quran took into their care and treated my quest for knowledge with respect, If I had attempted that with some of the Taliban I would be washing with "and Shoulders" I assure you!

Point 2 I am not the font of wisdom on Islam what I do know is that from the Hadith saying greet all you know and all you dont with the words peace be unto you I do know that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, I also quote the following passages from the Quran which to me seem completely at odds with the Taliban's actions
“Compulsion is incompatible with religion: because (1) religion depends upon faith and will, and these would be meaningless if induced by force.” – note 300 on verse 2:256

"men of Faith must not be impatient or angry if they have to contend against Unfaith, and most important of all, they must guard against the temptation of forcing Faith, i.e., imposing it on others by physical compulsion, or any other forms of compulsion such as social pressure, or inducements held out by wealth or position, or other adventitious advantages. Forced faith is no faith.” – note 1480 on verse 10:99

“Mere brutal fighting is opposed to the whole spirit of Jihad, while the sincere scholar’s pen or preacher’s voice or wealthy man’s contributions may be the most valuable forms of Jihad.” – note 1270 on verse 9:20

“War is only permissible in self-defence, and under well-defined limits. When undertaken, it must be pushed with vigour, but not relentlessly, but only to restore peace and freedom for the worship of God. In any case strict limits must not be transgressed: women, children, old and infirm men should not be molested, nor trees and crops cut down, nor peace withheld when the enemy comes to terms.” – note 204 on verse 2:190

Now please tell me in light of these words from a Holy Scripture how do you justify a movement killing at random, blowing up children, burning down schools, how do you describe them other than an organization dedicated to terrorising the populace?

Please tell me how you cannot call the Taliban terrorists when the slaughtered 8000 fellow Muslims at Mazar-a-Sharif?

How did they conform to the Sharia when they charged a 20% Zakat on all opium production (instead of 2,5%)

I am interested to know your thoughts of Mullah Omar claiming the title Emir al Muminin even when he had no right to do so

3 Terrorism, now I like the FBI's definition - The unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a Government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.
Extremism - Extremism is a term used to describe the actions or ideologies of individuals or groups outside the perceived political center of a society; or otherwise claimed to violate common moral standards.

Now that we have these definitions out of the way let me add thus, I take my Faith seriously as I assume do you, I have serious issues with ANY organization that perverts the Holy Word held in any of the Holy Scriptures (Be it the Bible, Quran, Talmud, Torah or any of the others) to justify a blatant power grab.

Thus I DO define the Taliban as a terrorist Organization, just as I define the IRA as one (I have Irish Ancestors and am the product of a Jesuit Catholic education) and certainely have no love lost for British colonialist ambitions however I deplore and indeed abhor the actions by the IRA, PIRA as well as the Unionists who conducted bombing campaigns against innocents As much as I consider the ANC pre 1994 as a terrorist organization so do I consider the actions of the SAP C10 units terrorist, As much as I would consider the KKK as a terrorist organization or the JDL or the AWB.

I am not by any means a screaming liberal who seeks to blame anyone in this context nor to justify any ones actions based on the product of their environment nor am I a hard arsed kill em all and let God sort them out type of guy but I do know that you cannot impose the will of man upon the instructions of God and attempt to define it for your own use! and that is what both Al Q and the Taliban are using as an excuse, just as surely as the National Socialists or the AWB!

As a matter of interest here are some clerics who have called out against the Taliban and terrorism

Grand Sheikh Mohammed Sayed Tantawi of the Al-Azhar mosque of Cairo - which is seen as the highest authority in Sunni Islam - said groups which carried out suicide bombings were the enemies of Islam. Speaking at the conference in the Malaysian capital, Kuala Lumpur, Sheikh Tantawi said extremist Islamic groups had appropriated Islam and its notion of jihad, or holy struggle, for their own ends.
BBC News, 11 July, 2003

Prominent Muslim scholar Dr. Youssef Al-Qaradawi has condemned Al-Qaeda for their fuel tanker suicide bombing of a centuries-old Jewish synagogue on the Tunisian island of Djerba in April 2002.

"Hijacking Planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood constitute a form of injustice that can not be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts."
Shaykh Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh, Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and Chairman of the Senior Ulama, on September 15th, 2001

"The terrorists acts, from the perspective of Islamic law, constitute the crime of hirabah (waging war against society)."
September 27, 2001 - Fatwa, signed by:
Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, Grand Islamic Scholar and Chairman of the Sunna and Sira Countil, Qatar
Judge Tariq al-Bishri, First Deputy President of the Council d'etat, Egypt
Dr. Muhammad s. al-Awa, Professor of Islamic Law and Shari'a, Egypt
Dr. Haytham al-Khayyat, Islamic scholar, Syria
Fahmi Houaydi, Islamic scholar, Syria
Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, Chairman, North America High Council

"Neither the law of Islam nor its ethical system justify such a crime."
Zaki Badawi, Principal of the Muslim College in London. Cited in Arab News, September 28, 2001.

"It is wrong to kill innocent people. It is also wrong to praise those who kill innocent people."
Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, Pakistan. Cited in the New York Times, September 28, 2001.

"What these people stand for is completely against all the principles that Arab Muslims believe in."
King Abdullah II, of Jordan; cited in the Middle East Times, September 28, 2001.

and some more from the Quran (I put in these extracts not for your benefit but for the others so they can see for themselves, I assume you have made a good and lengthy study of the Quran)( I also hope that the other readers of this site do understand that Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion and that it is not reflective of the organizations that hijack its name, just as much as the IRA did not represent Christianity)
The concept of war is mentioned in the Quran only six times. First, God and his messenger declare a spiritual war on the rich who make money by unproductive financial transactions (interest, currency trade, stock market speculation, derivatives). He asks creditors to give debtors time, or better yet, to forgive the debt as charity. 2:278

Second, after praising Abel for not fighting back when Cain murdered him, and decreeing that killing one soul is like killing all humanity, God condemns mass murder by gangs, calling it a war against law and order. The only exceptions are killing in self defense and court ordered execution of a murderer when the victim's family does not forgive. 5:27

Third, we learn that people in certain groups will keep trying to kindle a fire of war, and God promises to put it out. 5:64

Fourth, God condemns nations that regularly violate international treaties and start wars. He requires other nations to prepare forces of deterrence against such war starters, but commands us to make peace with them whenever they are open to it. 8:56ff

Fifth, the Quran tells us that warmongers will commit mass murder and falsely blame it on Muslims in an attempt to start a war against Muslims. Fortunately, the verses tell us that such plots are fragile, built on the crumbling edge of a mud hill, bound to collapse with the plotters into Hell. 9:107ff

Finally, God tells us that when war is over, the killing must stop and prisoners must be exchanged or set free. 47:4

Nations under military attack have to stick to very strict rules of self defense. "You may use lethal force with God's permission only against those who are currently using lethal force against you . . . but you may only kill the ones you confront in battle, and you may only expel your opponents from places they have previously expelled you from. Mass murder because of religion is worse than plain killing. . . . use force to stop it so that people's souls are free under God alone. If they stop using force, then you stop, too . . . Respond only with equal counter attack . . ." 2:190ff

**Anwar** · 09-04-2009, 16:30

Ok let me say this...
1- the FBI's meaning of terrorism puts the USA as the world's largest terrorist country
2- extremism - Extremism is a term used to describe the actions or ideologies of individuals or groups outside the perceived political center of a society; or otherwise claimed to violate common moral standards. hpy194
..........this political center and common moral standards, who defines that?
On your obvious lack of Islamic Knowledge and understanding, that I will deal with when I get home tonight. Need to run.........

**abhm** · 09-04-2009, 17:27

Of course yes I now remember all those US troops planting IED's burning the schools etc. Your obvious lack of knowledge of current events in Afghanistan or Iraq should make your answer interesting

**Anwar** · 09-04-2009, 18:00

Now I been thinking about this on my way home.......
1 - when you quote the Quraan and Hadeeth. Please quote it properly with the proper references where you got these. Please state what English translation of the quraan you're using as there are some versions which are incorrect. ( all this is an attempt to change the text and meaning of the Quraan). Footnotes you find in these versions are sometimes also incorrect. The Quraan is revealed in Arabic and the study of the Quraan is a field so broad that it will take a person a lifetime and he will not have completed it thoroughly. This also applies to the study of Hadeeth. For those who don't know , Hadeeth are the sayings of the prophet Muhammed (SAW), which incidently is also in Arabic. Now the laws of Islam comprises of both the Quraan and hadeeth as it's source.
(There is no compulsion in religion)(verse 2.256), meaning, "Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear. Therefore, there is no need to force anyone to embrace Islam. Rather, whoever Allah directs to Islam, opens his heart for it and enlightens his mind, will embrace Islam with certainty. Whoever Allah blinds his heart and seals his hearing and sight, then he will not benefit from being forced to embrace Islam.'' (Ibn Kathir).
As can clearly be seen, this has nothing to do with the Taliban and their activities as they are not forcing anybody to become a Muslim.
2- Please give the names of these alleged clerics so that we can contact these clerics and find out exactly what was said, why and when.
3 - you are once aqain quoting a footnote (10:99)- Please quote the whole verse with all it's meaning:

(And had your Lord willed) meaning `O Muhammad, if it had been the will of your Lord, He would make all the people of the earth believe in what you have brought to them. But Allah has wisdom in what He does.' Similarly, Allah said:(And if your Lord had so willed, He could surely have made mankind one Ummah, but they will not cease to disagree. Except him on whom your Lord has bestowed His mercy and for that did He create them. And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled (His saying): "Surely, I shall fill Hell with Jinn and men all together.'') (11:118-119) He also said,(Have not then those who believed yet known that had Allah willed, He could have guided all mankind) (13:31) Therefore, Allah said:(So, will you then compel mankind) and force them to believe.(until they become believers.) meaning, it is not for you to do that. You are not commanded to do that either. It is Allah Who (sends astray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills.)(35:8).(So do not destroy yourself in sorrow for them.)(It is not up to you to guide them, but Allah guides whom He wills.)?2:272?.
(It may be that you would kill yourself with grief because they are not believers.) ?26:3 (you guide not who you like..) ?28:56 (Your duty is only to convey, and it is up to Us to reckon. ) ?13:40?(So remind, you are only one who reminds. You are not a dictator over them.) ?88:21-22? There are other Ayat besides these which prove that Allah is the doer of what He wants, guiding whom He wills, leading whom He wills to stray, all out of His knowledge, wisdom, and justice. Similarly, He said,(It is not for any person to believe, except by the leave of Allah, and He will put the Rijs) That is, disorder and misguidance (upon those who do not reason) meaning, Allah's proofs and evidences, and He is the Just in all matters, guiding whom He wills to guide, and leading whom He wills astray. (IBN Kathir)
AS CAN CLEARLY BE SEEN YOU ARE ONCE AQAIN MISQUOTING AND QUOTING OUT OF CONTEXT

FOR YOUR INFORMATION-- Al-Azhar is not seen as the hightest authority on Islam- Kindly do more research

Now I can carry on eternally on this subject, but I don't believe this is the place for this discussion. You have made so many errors in your post it will take forever and a day to rectify these. I don't have the time or inclination to humour you.
Please moderators, do your job without favour, this is a forum on gun related issues. It always seems abhm gets to say as he pleases but others get moderated. ( I think this was mentioned somewhere else). ABHM your use of the English language is impressive, but it stinks of a spin doctor?
END OF DISCUSSION!!!!!!!

**Anwar** · 09-04-2009, 19:35

Originally Posted by abhm

Of course yes I now remember all those US troops planting IED's burning the schools etc. Your obvious lack of knowledge of current events in Afghanistan or Iraq should make your answer interesting

For your information,read this

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2...212418175.html

**BigT** · 09-04-2009, 19:54

Anwar I can see no reason to put a stop to this discourse. Yes this is a gun forum but numerous discussions have been held on varied topics. Posts are moderated when they are potentially harmful to the site not because any member or mod doesn't like the content. Previously removed threads have contained incitement to unlawful activity hence their remval.

I have the greatest respect for Islam even if I do not practise the Faiths just as I have respect for other Faiths but I cannot see any disparaging remarks to Islam only to certain organistions. If one disparages the AWB is one anti Afrikaans? Many people have negative views on the taliban due to reports of human rights violations etc. Any comments that disparaged Islam ,Judaism ,Christianity or other religions would be removed.

If ABHM is incorrect I think many members would be interested in an informative explanation. If you can point out any objectively anti Islamic (as opposed to anti certain organisational) statements please point them out to the mods for removal thereof.

I understand that this is a topic you are protective off but why not educate the members rather than alienate. I understand that as with all religion a life long study is required in order to scratch the surface but here is an opportunity to educate members regarding a religion that does receive a lot of negative press.

The mods are here to protect the integrity of the forum not to put a stop to debate unless the debate threatens the forum.