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  1. #11

    Default Re: An Alternate look at Handgun Stopping Power

    Very useful info. Thanks.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: An Alternate look at Handgun Stopping Power

    Lovely share, much appreciated.
    Thanks

  3. #13

    Default Re: An Alternate look at Handgun Stopping Power

    Thanks for sharing.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: An Alternate look at Handgun Stopping Power

    Cool, thanks!

  5. #15
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    Default Re: An Alternate look at Handgun Stopping Power

    I don't believe it, at last somebody that agrees with my view.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: An Alternate look at Handgun Stopping Power

    Thanks for posting - great read.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: An Alternate look at Handgun Stopping Power

    This is a damn good read, wonder how I missed it the first time.

  8. #18

    Default Re: An Alternate look at Handgun Stopping Power

    A very informative read. Thanks for sharing. :)

  9. #19
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    Default Re: An Alternate look at Handgun Stopping Power

    I strongly suggest the book- "Forensic Analysis Of The April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight" by Dr. W. French Anderson.

    That along with the paladin press booklet "FBI Wound Ballistic Evaluation."


    They crush the "stopping power" myth (in regards to handgun rounds) and the "one hit stop" in regards to shots to the body. The only two sure ways to instantly stop somebody are A- a hit to the brain/central nervous system and B- a hit to the upper spinal cord.

    However, as no two people are the same, it is possible that due to different reactions by different individuals, a previously combative and belligerent 6'5 240 pound male who was firing with his pistol, may instantly fall over, quitting the fight, just from being shot once in the chest/stomach by a .38 special. However, it is also possible that such an individual will continue to fight after being shot 5-6 times in the chest by a .44 magnum, a 9mm, a .45 ACP, etc.

    No two individuals respond the same way to being shot (except that everybody shot in the central nervous system goes down and everybody shot in the upper spinal cord experiences a loss of control from that point down).


    Look at how Platt and Matix fought in the FBI Miami shootout, Platt suffered a collapsed right lung and a hit that cut his right brachial artery and destroyed his right bicep, as well as suffering a wound that shattered the radial bone in his right hand/arm and left him unable to grip a pistol (he lost fine motor control and the ability to meaningful use his thumb) but he was still able to use one barely functioning finger on his right hand to operate the trigger of his Mini-14 and he advanced on FBI agents, killing two and critically injuring a third, all this after sustaining a half-dozen gunshot wounds which cost him the use of his right lung and caused a great deal of trauma to his right upper arm, right forearm, and right hand. Prior to that point he had also been hit in the thigh and I believe the hip.

    Being shot does not mean the fight is over, and we can look at the actions of FBI agent Edmundo Mireles as evidence of that. He suffered a .223 hit to his forearm and essentially lost meaningful use of that arm (for the rest of the gunfight anyway). He was suffering massive blood loss and in danger of blacking out, yet he was able to operate a 12 gauge shotgun, he shot Platt in both feet (while missing nearby agents who were only feet away from where Platt was), Platt seemed unfazed by the shotgun wounds (it didn't even knock him off his feet or slow him down, despite perforating gunshot wounds in both of his feet from the 00 buckshot Platt still found the will to continue walking), and then ultimately he (agent Mireles) pushed himself to his feet and advanced on Platt and Matix, finishing them off with a 38 special, hitting Matix in the head and Platt in the upper spinal cord.

    Ultimately Platt suffered 12 gunshot wounds and Matix suffered 6 gunshot wounds (including an initial wound to the head, which was delivered by a .38 special and which fractured his skull and contused his brain, knocking him unconscious in the opening minute of the gunfight, but he was able to regain consciousness at some point during the gunfight, and without being noticed by the agents who were focused on Platt, he was able to exit the vehicle he was in, process what was going on, and join Platt in a vehicle belonging to two agents Platt had just killed, all this after suffering a gunshot wound that contused his brain, another one that cut the ulnar artery on his right hand/arm, and another that went through his neck and collapsed his right lung causing 900cc of blood to pool in his chest cavity, even after those three devastating wounds, Matix was able to regain consciousness, assess the situation, and make his way to where his friend was).

    As for Platt, he suffered 10 gunshot wounds (one which collapsed his right lung, another which cut his brachial artery on his right arm, another which hit and wrecked his right forearm) before he was stopped with the final two (wounds 11 and 12) the final shot being the one that hit his upper spinal cord. Platt had lost an estimated 40% of his blood prior to the point where he advanced on the agents who had taken cover behind one of their vehicles, killing two and seriously injuring a third.

    Platt still had a pulse when paramedics checked him approx 20-30 minutes after the gunfight ended. They intubated and started an IV but he never regained consciousness after the final two hits.


    As for the two suspects/criminals, autoposy revealed ZERO alcohol, ZERO drugs, nothing irregular. Neither suspect wore body armor, they were clad only in basic clothing for an April day in Miami.

    Platt had served in the United States Army, as an Army Ranger. Matix had served in the Marine Corps and then later the US Army (as an MP).


    In the FBI Wound Ballistic Evaluation, one suggestion that is made, "keep shooting until the threat is clearly no longer a threat" do not assume that one or even two hits will neutralize a threat and stop an attack. Sometimes there will be people who have an incredible will to survive or to go down fighting.


    Background info on the FBI Miami Shootout. The two suspects were armed thusly-

    Ruger Mini-14 (at least 42 rounds fired- by Platt)
    Smith and Wesson .357 magnum revolver (6 inch barrel) (3 rounds fired- by Platt)
    Dan Wesson- .357 magnum revolver (6 inch barrel) (3 rounds fired- by Platt)
    Smith and Wesson 12 gauge Model 3000 shotgun (loaded with #6 shot- only 1 round fired- by Matix, prior to his initial head injury, after which he never fired another round, despite having regained consciousness)

    Prior to this shooting neither suspect had ever been arrested or charged with any serious/violent crime. Although both had been married to women who died under suspicious circumstances. Platt's wife was found dead with a shotgun blast to the head, police ruled the death a suicide. Matix's wife (who was supposedly heavily insured by Matix) was brutally murdered, stabbed dozens of times, in what police determined to be a botched robbery, although there was speculation that Matix had talked with a friend about how to murder his wife and make it look like a robbery.

    The FBI agents were armed with .357 magnum revolvers but they were restricted to using only .38 special ammunition, with all of them opting to use .38 +P. Three agents were armed with 9mm semi-automatic handguns. Two shotguns (loaded with 00 buckshot) were available at the scene but only one was brought into action as one agent, the supervisory agent in charge of the rolling stakeout, was shot in the neck and paralyzed when he tried to get the shotgun out of the backseat of his car (he was only temporarily paralyzed and he later regained mobility- again, a point to make, being shot, even with a .223, even in the neck, is not necessarily the end).

    While attempting to force the suspect vehicle off the road, by ramming it, one agent removed his revolver from the holster and set it on his lap in anticipation of a gunfight. However, the back/forth ramming caused his door to fly open and his revolver flew into the street, and he was unable to locate it during the gunfight. He fired zero rounds during the gunfight.

    Another agent lost control of his revolver in the collision and he was reduced to using his backup revolver which he had in an ankle holster.

    There were a total of 8 FBI agents at the scene, three of whom were SWAT qualified (the three who had 9mm pistols). In addition to the 2 shotguns available at the scene, there were other agents in the rolling stakeout who had amongst them (unless I am mistaken) 2 M-16s, 4 12 gauge shotguns, and 1 MP5, but they were all located elsewhere along the South Dixie Highway in Miami, being about 10-20 minutes away.


    Here's an FBI conducted re-enactment of the shooting.


    http://www.gardenstatecle.com/lawtube/FBI1.html



    The main thing with a handgun round is that it needs to have two things going for it... The bullet must be able to penetrate to a crucial organ/spine cord and it must have sufficient mass to displace/damage whatever it reaches once it reaches it. The most important factor in whether or not a handgun round will wound/incapacitated (aside from shooting somebody in the CNS/brain or the upper spinal cord) is how well/how deep the round will penetrate.

    When determining "stopping power" as in shots to the center mass/body/chest, penetration is king. In 1986-1987 the trauma surgeons, bullet designers, military weapons experts, physicists, and other experts commissioned by the FBI determined that 16 inches was the bare minimum for acceptable penetration in soft tissue for a handgun caliber/round/bullet to be considered acceptable for law enforcement/defensive purposes. The average person is considerably wider/heavier today than they were in 1986 and I would raise that 16 inches up to about 18-19 inches, with 20-21 inches being even better.


    I'm going to interject some of my personal opinion in here, based on what I have read of ballistics, wound ballistics, and what I've learned in physics/applied physics. The "best" mainstream/common pistol caliber and bullet type available at the time of the FBI Miami-shootout, out of the available 38 specials, 357 magnums, 9mm, .45 ACP, etc, would probably have been the 147 grain 9mm sub-sonic, while the 115 grain was barely acceptable. I believe a 357 magnum general purpose (with 70 cm penetration in soft tissue) would have gone through Platt's right lung and into the heart (the 9mm round Platt was hit with passed through his right arm, cut the brachial, continued into his body/chest, collapsed the right lung, and stopped just short of his heart). My understanding of .45 ACP performance, especially the non-HP (FMJ) rounds available back then leads me to believe that if Platt had been shot with a .45 ACP it would have caused massive damage to his right arm, penetrated some distance into his chest, and probably stopped short of the right lung. In terms of penetration the 45 (HP/JHP) tends to lag a bit behind the 9mm (especially in regards to rounds/bullets available back then).

    I don't doubt that either a 9mm or .45 ACP FMJ would have gone clear through Platt's right lung, and into the heart, probably ending the gunfight within 5-15 seconds after that hit (people shot in the heart can still function coherently and offer coordinated resistance for 5-15 seconds, usually around 10 seconds).


    My theory on weapons summarized-

    If you want to carry a revolver carry a .357 magnum and load it with .357 magnum. If you can handle a .44 magnum and decide the 44 magnum is right for you, then pick your loads accordingly and make sure you are going to get the necessary 18-20 inches of penetration.

    If you want to carry a semi-automatic pistol, probably your best choices of caliber are going to be 9mm, .40 S&W, and 10mm. If you insist on carrying a .45 ACP make sure your JHP/HP are going to get you at least 18-20 inches of penetration (a lot of 1980s era JHP were barely able to achieve 14 inches, some managed 15 inches, below the standards set by the FBI experts back then). For people who want to carry a .45 ACP, capacity will be very important as statistically only 18-20% of shots fired will hit the target (it goes without saying, gunfights are stressful). Somebody carrying a 1911A1 with a 7+1 capacity is statistically going to achieve 1.6 hits, not a great prospect. If you want to carry a .45 ACP pistol try to get a capacity of at least 12+1 rounds, so you are statistically looking at 2.6 hits, in addition to carrying spare magazines. I would suggest loading a mix of FMJ and HP/JHP.


    People talk about expansion of the round and the caliber war has been argued to death, but I believe the experts in the 1980s settled it when they decided "it isn't the diameter of the wound, it is the depth of the wound and where the wound is."

    You could hit somebody with a .75 caliber round that expands to 1.25 inches and if it only goes 5 inches deep into them, they're going to have a nasty looking wound that does nothing in the way of immediate/quick incapacitation. A wound that is .355-.40 inches in diameter but 18-20 inches deep into somebody, has the real potential to damage/destroy crucial organs or go through the body and hit the spinal cord. Again, most modern .45 ACP rounds should have this potential but you want to make sure you're not using some obsolete bullet designed by a company that uses the old stopping power crap of the "Relative Incapacitation Index" which has been thoroughly debunked.

    A handgun bullet, basically any handgun bullet, short of hitting somebody in the CNS/brain or the USC (upper spinal cord) has to be able to penetrate at least 16 inches, ideally 18-20, if you are hitting somebody in the chest/body, to have the potential to reach crucial internal organs.

    Some calibers are going to be better than others, some weapons platforms are better than others. Capacity is important, shot placement is important, but it isn't as easy as saying, "train once a week and learn to hit what you shoot at!" of course you need to train but you will still be nervous and possibly terrified in a real gunfight. Frequent training may help get that 18-20% hit probability up to perhaps 25-35% but you're still going to have a lot of misses, you have to expect it, you have to expect the attacker to be able to continue fighting even after sustaining one, two, or three, hits to the body/chest. Plan accordingly, carry a weapon with sufficient capacity, carry a back-up weapon, carry spare magazines, etc.

    Capacity/firepower, shot placement, bullet penetration. If you find some .32 caliber pistol that holds 12 rounds and you find bullets that have proven penetration of 16 inches in soft tissue, and that's the gun you absolutely want to carry, then train with it and carry it.

    In general it doesn't matter which handgun you want to use (of course some will be better than others, a $600 pistol of a type favored by military units is naturally better than a $50 dollar pistol favored by crack-dealers), but as long as you cover the "big three" or the "holy trinity" of capacity, placement, and penetration, you should be set.

    Placement is all on you, it is up to you to train to hit what you aim at, train under pressure (have friends yell and scream at you, have people sound off air-horns, make noises, maybe have somebody shake you while you fire- do whatever you need to do to simulate stressful conditions, train calm to become proficient and competent, then add in stress so you are less stressed when it matters for real.

    Capacity is something that is mostly fixed with the weapon, so make your weapon selection accordingly.

    Penetration is something that is mostly a function of the bullet/bullet design so select a bullet that you believe will function as needed.


    Sorry for the long post, I didn't mean to go on so long and I don't want to ignite any sort of caliber war, I'm just suggesting folks keep in mind that being shot doesn't mean the suspect is down and also, if you are shot, it doesn't mean you have to quit the fight, you don't have to lose the fight just because you were shot, you can still fight back (think about agent Mireles who fought back after having his arm wrecked by a direct hit from a .223 Mini-14), and you can win!



    Just as an aside, in the event anybody was going to ask, to head off the potential question of "okay so which caliber do you like?"

    From everything I've studied and seen, I really like the 10mm but the round is so dang expensive, there are limited options in regards to weapons chambered in that caliber, and people in the USA have been prosecuted and imprisoned by reckless District Attorneys/prosecutors looking to make a name by harping on somebody using a "non law enforcement caliber" which was "clearly selected by the individual for maximum damage and trauma." In a better world the 10mm would be more affordable, there'd be more offerings in regards to pistols chambered in 10mm, and prosecutors would prosecute criminals instead of citizens. A short-barreled rifle/carbine in 10mm might make an excellent SHTF/ranch defense weapon.

    Aside from the 10mm, I really, really, really like the 9mm and the .40 S&W... Heck, of course I like the 9mm, I presently have 6 weapons chambered in 9mm (M9 Beretta, Glock 17, HK PSP, Walther P1, Springfield XDM, and an Uzi).

    Aside from that, the .45 ACP is okay, I think it is a "decent enough" round, just as long as you make sure you don't have some obsolete HP/JHP bullet. FMJ will give FINE penetration, perhaps even better than 9mm FMJ penetration, but the .45 ACP has always been known for lacking penetration, which is one of the main reasons they came out with .38 Super and why Dillinger swore by .38 Super for penetrating vehicle bodies and body armor (of his time). I had two pistols chambered in .45 ACP although I presently don't have any. If I get back into .45 ACP it will not be with a 1911A1, but probably with a Glock or an XDM.

    ---------- Post added at 01:42 ---------- Previous post was at 01:33 ----------

    One more final thought, excellent article/post to the OP (Khumba) but I just want to point out that in regards to people being "stopped" with one shot, or "one shot incapacitation" it may not be physical incapacitation. Most common criminals when shot, even once, are likely to end their attack, and many people will fall over/drop in place just from being hit once, even in the stomach.

    I've never been shot but I cannot imagine it being pleasant. Most people are likely to stop whatever they are attempting/were attempting to do just from being shot once, even with a low caliber handgun. A nasty outlaw biker who has just declared his intent to take your head off with his wrench is probably going to stop just from being shot once in the chest.

    Most people probably do not like being shot and they will probably capitulate if shot. This may mean that their mind tells them "quit the fight" and they quit the fight by falling over, curling up, etc.

    Obviously Platt didn't do that, but most criminals are NOT Platt. Few people have the will and determination, the mental power if you prefer to term it that, to carry on a fight after being shot. Especially if their motive in the situation is to commit a robbery. It is likely very different if you are fighting for your life. Most people will fight to the death if their life is on the line, but very few people want to die in an attempt to steal a briefcase or snatch a purse. They're more likely to want to quit the fight, exit the situation, as soon as they receive significant pain/trauma. Falling over (which is a form of immediately stopping their attack) is one way they announce they quit, they may very well be in a physical condition to continue resisting, but they don't want to suffer more damage so they quit.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: An Alternate look at Handgun Stopping Power

    Very informative post keepandbeararms-thank you for your insights

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