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  1. #21
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    Default Re: An Alternate look at Handgun Stopping Power

    KABA. I don't have time right now to go through all the points in your post. B ut here's a quick few.

    The FBI set the minimum penetration at 12" not 16". They also believe anythging past 20" is wasted.

    A 45 fmj in the arm is not going to do "massive damage" pathologists tell us its normally impossible to tell the difference in calibre between a 9 and 45 based only on wound track.

    A huge number of people on being shot are not aware of the injury at the time. Thinking that the bad guy won't like getting shot and will immediately break off because of that is setting yourself up for a family size bucket of fail.

    Expanding bullets across the variou service pistol calibres with similar sectional density exhibit similar penetration. 45 does not exhibit sub standard penetration with a very large percentage of duty ammo. In fact very few 45 hollow points don't make the 12" minimum.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: An Alternate look at Handgun Stopping Power

    Quote Originally Posted by BigT View Post
    KABA. I don't have time right now to go through all the points in your post. B ut here's a quick few.

    The FBI set the minimum penetration at 12" not 16". They also believe anythging past 20" is wasted.

    A 45 fmj in the arm is not going to do "massive damage" pathologists tell us its normally impossible to tell the difference in calibre between a 9 and 45 based only on wound track.

    A huge number of people on being shot are not aware of the injury at the time. Thinking that the bad guy won't like getting shot and will immediately break off because of that is setting yourself up for a family size bucket of fail.

    Expanding bullets across the variou service pistol calibres with similar sectional density exhibit similar penetration. 45 does not exhibit sub standard penetration with a very large percentage of duty ammo. In fact very few 45 hollow points don't make the 12" minimum.

    In the booklet "FBI Wound Ballistic Evaluation" one of the trauma surgeon experts they commissioned recommended 16 inches as the minimum. If they ultimately set it at 12 inches that is something they did against the recommendation of the experts they themselves commissioned. He stated that 15 should be the "absolute bare mimimum at the present time" and that 16 should be the standard for any new caliber that would be designed for FBI purposes, and that in the future 18 inches would be even better, and that as ammunition development/design improved, 18 inches could reasonably become the new standard, but that anything below 15 inches has no place in law enforcement.


    The FBI commissioned a bunch of people to study bullets, bullet design, etc, most of the experts responded that 12 inches is unacceptable, 13 inches is unacceptable, 14 inches is close to acceptable, 15 inches would be acceptable at the time they were writing, and 16 inches should be the standard to aim for, with most adding that 18 inches would be better. What did the FBI do? They threw out almost everything they were told, declared 12 inches to be great, and went on their merry way. That doesn't make the FBI right, it just means that they are a typical bureaucracy, doing whatever they feel like doing for their own reasons.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: An Alternate look at Handgun Stopping Power

    Its well know that its set at 12. Has been since then. Pretty much all modern duty ammo is designed around 12" minimum.

    ---------- Post added at 09:36 ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 ----------

    Miami was more a tactical failure than an ammo failure. Many assume that a ball round wouldve finished the fight sooner. But its simply that an assumption.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: An Alternate look at Handgun Stopping Power

    Quote Originally Posted by BigT View Post
    A huge number of people on being shot are not aware of the injury at the time. Thinking that the bad guy won't like getting shot and will immediately break off because of that is setting yourself up for a family size bucket of fail.
    I am offering a theory as to why some people are stopped with one shot despite the fact that they were not shot in the head/CNS nor the spinal cord.

    Some people are shot once and then they quit the fight.

    I would suggest that you deliver sustained fire at the target until it is clearly no longer a threat. In my view you are justified shooting somebody 10-15 times in the chest/body if they are charging you with a knife. I wouldn't tell somebody to "stop after one shot" or "expect them to stop after being hit once" however, if you shoot somebody once in the stomach and they immediately fall over screaming, from a legal and moral point of view, I would say that you should probably stop shooting them unless they resume behaving in a threatening/dangerous manner.


    Some people take 10-15 shots before they go down for good, other people are stopped with just one hit, I was not saying or suggesting "expect them to stop after one shot" but rather offering a possible explanation for why some people, who are not lethally shot, who are not physically unable to continue fighting, are stopped with just one shot. It must be psychological/mental, they lack the will to continue.

    Outside of being hit in the brain/CNS or the spinal cord (specifically upper spinal cord) the only way somebody is taken out of a fight is when they decide to stop fighting. Even if somebody is hit dead center in the heart, they can still function for 10-15 seconds and fight. The only explanation for somebody being stopped with one hit to an area that is not instantly incapacitating (CNS/brain or the upper spinal cord) is that they realized the trauma/pain/hit and they are quitting the fight by stopping, their "fight or flight" reaction results in "flight" which manifests itself in the form of falling over/quitting.

    ---------- Post added at 02:45 ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by BigT View Post
    Its well know that its set at 12. Has been since then. Pretty much all modern duty ammo is designed around 12" minimum.

    ---------- Post added at 09:36 ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 ----------

    Miami was more a tactical failure than an ammo failure. Many assume that a ball round wouldve finished the fight sooner. But its simply that an assumption.

    Tactically the agents handled themselves very well, they managed multiple hits on both suspects, from distances ranging from 8-12 feet to 90 feet away, while they themselves were under very accurate and precise rifle fire being delivered by a former US Army Ranger.

    Once the vehicles were stopped the agents performed very well, but the manner in which they handled the vehicle collisions, the ramming, the forcing the suspect vehicle off the road, that left a lot to be desired... However, we can all tear apart what they did wrong and talk about should have and could have. The bottom-line, the suspects were known to be very violent, they were wanted in connection with multiple homicides, bank robberies, armored car robberies, letting them get out off of that side street and back onto the main drag/road, South Dixie Highway, was really not an option. The agents HAD to stop those guys there and then.

    Were mistakes made? Of course mistakes were made, few things go by 100% by the book/plan.

    Based on the known performance of certain bullets, I believe that if Dove had fired something besides the under-performing 115 grain 9mm JHP at Platt as he was leaving the vehicle, such as a 147 grain sub-sonic JHP which has a measured penetration of around 15 inches, the fight probably would have ended much sooner. However, that is just speculation as there are other variables to consider that I cannot account for or factor into my theory. Again, it is speculation but based on what we know of the performance of the round, I expect it may have turned out the way I suggest if that round had been used.

    The FBI can swear by 12 inches, their own consultants and experts recommended something very different. That was in 1986-1987, people are a lot wider/fatter these days, 12 inches was bad in 1987 when the FBI overruled their own experts and ran with the 12 inch figure, and 12 inches is bad today in 2011 when the average person is probably 38-42 inches wide.

    The average person (at least in the USA) is clinically overweight/obese, if you have to shoot through 8-10 inches of extra fat/tissue that are now between the bullet and crucial organs, the FBI 12 inch dogma just won't cut it.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: An Alternate look at Handgun Stopping Power

    Ask Stacey Lim(sp) how instantly effective heart shots are.

    I am not a medical expert. The worlds foremost wound ballistic experts seem to be happy with 12". I will bow to their vastly superior knowledge in this field.


    Btw. I am not in any way making any sort of negative comment about the bravery of those agents. But that fight didn't end badly only because of 2" of penetration. The wound was non survivable anyway according to the medicak examiner.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: An Alternate look at Handgun Stopping Power

    From "FBI Ballistic Wound Evaluation"- report/booklet compiled by Paladin Press



    Dr. Carroll Peters- University of Tennessee Space Institute- "capability to pentrate 45-50 cm is desirable." (page 18)


    Dr. O'Brien C. Smith- University of Tennessee Medical Center- "Voluntary activity may persist for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed, although vision may fail before this. Some individuals will be stunned by their injuries, incapable of any movement. The cause of this is not known. It is an inconsistent, unreliable, and not reproducible event. Pain may or may not be a factor, but the painful stimulus must first be perceived (inconstant in war and high emotional states, drug effects, etc.), and then this perception of pain must cause an emotional reaction." (page 19)

    "the currently issued W-W 9mm 115 gr. Silvertip dangerously lacks penetration due to its early and full expansion."

    "the more recently developed W-W 9mm 147 gr. subsonic JHP penetrates further and is an acceptable early replacement. Even more penetration would be desirable (enhance velocity or mass)."

    "the current W-W .45 ACP 185 gr. Silvertip is marginally better."

    "the Remington .45 ACP 185 gr. JHP is better yet, but even more penetration would be desirable."

    "Penetration of 30 cm (12 inches) of typical soft tissue should be considered minimum. Ideally more penetration should be available so that bullets may go through an arm and across the torso."

    -above lines from Dr. O'Brien Smith (page 20)-


    Dr. Martin Fackler US Army Letterman Army Institute of Research-

    "25 cm (10 inches) must be the absolute minimum penetration depth capability of any bullet that could be considered acceptable. Any angle, fat, the arm as an intermediate target, etc, will increase the depth a bullet must go to get to these vessels and when it gets there it must have something left to go through (they won't bleed if the bullet just nestles up besides them)."


    Dr. Fackler mentions fat, and he sets the absolute minimum at 10 inches. Others set it at 12, but that is the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM. They also clearly state that 19 inches is massively better.

    If the FBI is happy to use an "absolute minimum" from 1986-1987, then so be it, they can do that. My absolute minimum is 16 inches.

    Dr. Fackler mentions fat at a time when perhaps 10% of the USA was obese, today that figure is 35%, and if when you count obese AND overweight, the figure is about 65 percent, meaning that your attacker is most likely going to have some layer of fat that you'll have to get through.





    ---------- Post added at 03:22 ---------- Previous post was at 03:19 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by BigT View Post
    Ask Stacey Lim(sp) how instantly effective heart shots are.

    I am not a medical expert. The worlds foremost wound ballistic experts seem to be happy with 12". I will bow to their vastly superior knowledge in this field.


    Btw. I am not in any way making any sort of negative comment about the bravery of those agents. But that fight didn't end badly only because of 2" of penetration. The wound was non survivable anyway according to the medicak examiner.

    Indeed it was non-survivable, but Platt survived long enough to kill Dove (the agent who delivered the non-survivable wound), kill Dove's partner (Grogan), and critically injury Hanlon.

    Dr O'Brien Smith stated that the 115 gr Silvertip is dangerously inadequate and the 147 gr subsonic was an acceptable "early replacement" in 1986-1987.

    If Dove had 147 gr subsonic rounds instead of 115 gr Silvertip, Platt probably would have suffered a collapsed right lung AND a damaged/wrecked heart and the gunfight would likely have ended within the next 15 seconds. That's just speculation on my part, I realize and admit that, however it is speculation based on what a medical doctor reported about the performance of the two rounds and what we know happened to Platt with the 115 grain Silvertip he was shot with (he suffered an ultimately non-survivable wound but he survived long enough to kill two people and wound several others).

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    Default Re: An Alternate look at Handgun Stopping Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderin' Zero View Post
    For me the most interesting stat is the one about the percentage of people who were *not* incapacitated. The two lowest and about on a par were the rifle and the .357 Mag. And both beat the shotgun... All a bit unexpected but pretty interesting.
    Not unexpected to me. Three shots fired between 5 and 10m showed no results, except that the guy ran faster. Ammo was either SSG or SG, definately not AAA or LG. have always maintained shotguns are for the birds.

    WAH

  8. #28
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    Default Re: An Alternate look at Handgun Stopping Power

    Quote Originally Posted by BigT View Post
    KABA. I don't have time right now to go through all the points in your post. B ut here's a quick few.


    A 45 fmj in the arm is not going to do "massive damage" pathologists tell us its normally impossible to tell the difference in calibre between a 9 and 45 based only on wound track.


    Expanding bullets across the variou service pistol calibres with similar sectional density exhibit similar penetration. 45 does not exhibit sub standard penetration with a very large percentage of duty ammo. In fact very few 45 hollow points don't make the 12" minimum.
    Big T you are right about the wound channel size and there is a reason for it. Slow bullet push tissue out of the way and stretch the wound channel which contracts again after the passing and so 9mm being faster will cause less stretch and subsequent less shrinkage.

    As velocity increases large cavities and more damage is observed. Resea4rchers have not progressed to understand Kinetic enrgy, energy content and energy density yet, but fortunately most have come of the idiocy of the momentum thgeory such as the RSP from Hatcher.

    Regards

    WAH

  9. #29
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    Default Re: An Alternate look at Handgun Stopping Power

    Necro Post...back from the dead. We prefer not to dredge up these things, but since wah has commented I will too. Here is a post from DocGKR from another forum that does not want to be linked back to. Note that pure psychological issues are not discussed in scientific media...because they simply cannot ever be accurately predicted




    "Given all the wound ballistic data that has been published over the past two decades, I am surprised regarding the continued amount of misinformation being perpetuated about this subject, especially in light of the voluminous results available from CONUS OIS incidents, as well as OCONUS combat results.

    A variety of equally important methodologies are used for terminal performance testing, including actual shooting incident reconstruction, forensic evidence analysis, and post-mortem data and/or surgical findings; properly conducted ethical animal test results; and laboratory testing—this includes the use of tissue simulants proven to have correlation with living tissue. Some individuals seem to be under the mistaken impression that one of these areas is more important than others--this is not the case, as each category provides important information to researchers.

    The IWBA published some of Gene Wolberg’s material from his study of San Diego PD officer involved shootings that compared bullet performance in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin with the autopsy results using the same ammunition. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, he had collected data on nearly 150 OIS incidents which showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets fired by officers had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. Several other agencies with strong, scientifically based ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted similar reviews of their shooting incidents with much the same results--there is an extremely strong correlation between properly conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin laboratory studies and the physiological effects of projectiles in actual shooting incidents. As discussed above by tpd223, the forensic results of every OIS incident I am aware of match the findings demonstrated in the lab using properly conducted 10% gel studies.

    The last decade of OCONUS military operations have provided a tremendous amount of combat derived terminal performance information. The U.S. government gathered numerous experts from a variety of disciplines, including military and law enforcement end-users, trauma surgeons, aero ballisticians, weapon and munitions engineers, and other scientific specialists to form the Joint Service Wound Ballistic Integrated Product Team to conduct a 4 year, 6 million dollar study to determine what terminal performance assessment best reflected the actual findings noted in combat. Over 10,000 test shots were conducted. The test protocol that was found to be correct, valid, and became the agreed upon JSWB-IPT “standard” evolved from the one first developed by Dr. Fackler at LAIR in the 1980’s, promoted by the IWBA in the 1990’s, and used by most reputable wound ballistic researchers and savvy LE agencies.

    The JSWB-IPT, FBI BRF, AFTE, and other organizations get to assess an extensive amount of post-shooting forensic data. The whole raison d'ętre of these independent, non-profit organizations is to interpret and disseminate information that will help LE and military personnel more safely and effectively perform their duties and missions. Physiological damage potential is the only metric that has been shown to have any correlation with field results in actual shooting incidents, based on law enforcement autopsy findings, as well as historical and ongoing combat trauma results. In other words a damage-based metric has relevance to and accurately reflects the real world, while other measures of "lethality" and "incapacitation" are elaborate fantasy games of mathematical calculations and engineering statistics that fail to truly reflect the fact that in the gritty realm of face-to-face combat, incapacitating the enemy is about rapidly inflicting sufficient physiological damage to the enemy’s critical anatomic structures in order to stop that opponent from continuing to be a lethal threat. The FBI BRF, USMC, NSWC Crane, and USSOCOM are all using physiological damage based metrics.

    Folks who choose to ignore these documented and verified facts may not like this, but based on all of this carefully collected, independently validated, real-world derived data the wounding characteristics an optimal combat/LE/personal defense rifle rifle projectiles are well known..."
    Run Fast, Bite Hard!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ikor View Post
    Necro Post...back from the dead. We prefer not to dredge up these things, but since wah has commented I will too.
    Yeah, WAH has been displaying some necrophaelic tendencies of late, but to be fair this is a sticky, and its nice to see stickies get some airtime.

    ;o)

    Thanks for some more good info.

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