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Thread: Found on News24

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Found on News24

    As promised Gareth's article;

    Lock 'n Load

    27th October, 2008

    Do you own a gun? Are you scared of guns? Maybe you've seen what they can do and you're frightened. That's OK, it doesn't make you weak, but maybe you should read this:

    I own a licensed gun. I am proud of being a gun owner. I would own many more guns if it weren't so very tedious to comply with the administration attached to each firearm.

    Before all the liberals start wailing, let me also state that I have never killed anyone and I don't intend shooting anyone in the foreseeable future. In fact, I have never even so much as raised a hand in anger - never been in a fight - ergo, I am not a violent person.

    If you are one of those people who, like me feels that an armed man is a citizen and an unarmed man a subject, maybe you understand this argument already - in which case, go and have a snack or read the next article on my site. We probably understand each other. If, however, you work for Gun-Free South Africa, you'll probably want to shoot me by the end of this piece.

    Answer yes or no to the following questions to see where you stand:

    1) Do you believe guns kill people?

    2) Do you believe the government (i.e. Police) can protect you from bad people who want to kill you?

    3) Do you think guns are dangerous and go off all the time by accident?

    4) Do you think you could negotiate with a criminal from behind your security gate or alarm system and ask him nicely to leave your house?

    5) Do you believe a can of mace, a cattle-prod, a kitchen-knife or your blue-belt in karate are affective weapons against a gun-wielding bad guy?

    6) Do you think, if nobody had guns, criminals would hang up their coats and find real jobs, instead of carry on with the crime and perhaps use a different kind of weapon?

    7) Do you believe most licensed gun-owners shoot to kill instead of shoot to stay alive?

    8) Do you believe we need more laws and restrictions placed on private, legal gun-owners?

    If you answered yes to any of the questions, then you and I are likely to disagree on all of them. We live in a country where it is apparent that ordinary citizens cannot rely on anyone but themselves for their security. Government has made it very difficult for us to own guns because they seek to control us and only a government that fears it's people needs to control them. Wouldn't you rather have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it?

    Simply put, guns are not the problem, criminals are the problem. It is the desire to do evil with or without a weapon that leads to criminal activity. Think about it, just because a woman has the equipment to become a prostitute doesn't mean she is one, right? Government and Gun Free South Africa have no business taking away good people's guns. Leave us alone. By the way, if you need more convincing, or perhaps some statistics to back up my case, think about this -

    164 999 987 firearm owners killed nobody yesterday.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Found on News24

    While the idea is good you can unfortunately not disassociate this from Peter.

    He always pleads for a single organisation and then insists that it is done his way and rains scorn on any and every other idea, thought or suggestion.

    He wants to be a Gun Rights Dictator with a bunch of (read all) pro-gun minions running around doing his bidding as and how he directs while refusing to entertain any suggestions or intelligent discussion.

    He will not join any other organisation as he is incapable of listening to and reasoning with others who may (and often may even not) differ from him in the slightest of ways.

    Peter has alienated, slated, derided and insulted too many (read all) pro-Gun advocates to ever be able to take any form of role in such an organisation.

    IMO.
    [b]Be ready for anything, and if his head is not at least two meters away from the body, do not 'assume' he is dead and out of the fight.[/b] [I]- Ikor[/I]

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Found on News24

    Hi JS4, Peter has disassociated himself from everything, he is no longer interested but that does not mean that the idea could not work, he would not be involved in any way.
    I was thinking more along the lines of Gunsite picking up the ball where SAGA let it go, we have some great minds on this site. Would be plenty of work but many hands make light work. I will gladly help/assist anyone will to give it a go. We still have some of the old troops on this site, Dick and Martin, to name two, I'm sure there are others. At least let it be discussed rationally, and please forget about Peter, we have all had our differences in the past, it's our future we need to worry about.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baboon Shooter View Post
    Hi JS4, Peter has disassociated himself from everything, he is no longer interested but that does not mean that the idea could not work, he would not be involved in any way.
    I was thinking more along the lines of Gunsite picking up the ball where SAGA let it go, we have some great minds on this site. Would be plenty of work but many hands make light work. I will gladly help/assist anyone will to give it a go. We still have some of the old troops on this site, Dick and Martin, to name two, I'm sure there are others. At least let it be discussed rationally, and please forget about Peter, we have all had our differences in the past, it's our future we need to worry about.
    Valid point at the end and I am all for that.

    However, to claim that Peter has disassociated himself from everything is false, as can be seen on the Gun Control Open Debate (formerly known as GFSA) Facebook page (where he made the same promise - threat in his mind probably - of leaving and quitting, only to return more active, scathing, belligerent, insulting, condescending and radical than before, if that were possible).

    His rants and debates there (mostly with himself btw) leads me to view this as another attempt at pulling the strings and controlling things from 'behind the scenes', as it were.

    If I'm wrong then great, but I'll believe it when I see it.

    Sorry Dave, but as I have said to you before: you guys have poisoned your own wells through the various ways in which you have lied, accused, created false personas and treated others here and elsewhere.

    As Paul has said in the past it is a great pity for Peter (for one) has an encyclopaedic knowledge wrt firearms rights and legal issues. He (and more specifically his methods - still used by many of his adherents) has done more harm to the cause than GFSA has IMO.

    Any initiative attempted with even a whiff of Peter, CrimeFree, Bianca Jones and/or how many other names will have the sane running for cover faster than you can type 'collaborator'.
    [b]Be ready for anything, and if his head is not at least two meters away from the body, do not 'assume' he is dead and out of the fight.[/b] [I]- Ikor[/I]

  5. #15

    Default Re: Found on News24

    Dave , you are of course correct and if you had made the post and left CF out of it , this thread would have gone in a completely different direction. I think it would be better to start a new thread as this particular one will always be associated with CF and his issues

    A single umbrella body is certainly not unique to CF anyway.
    "Guns are just tools, the way they're used reflects the society they're apart of, if you don't like guns, blame it on society" ~Chris Kyle

  6. #16

    Default Re: Found on News24

    Quote Originally Posted by JS4 View Post
    Any initiative attempted with even a whiff of Peter, CrimeFree, Bianca Jones and/or how many other names will have the sane running for cover faster than you can type 'collaborator'.
    Then you had better tar me with the same brush. You will have noticed that in my short time on Gunsite I have made little or no reference to gun rights, except for my reference today to the regrettable failure of SAHGCA, and then only because I thought it relevant to the discussion about green licenses in that thread. That's because that battle has been lost. In case you hadn't noticed, there has not been a single concession in our direction, the "consultations" with Jenny Irish were window dressing as I said they would be, and Nathi Mtwetwa's promises to clean up the administrative chaos came to nothing, predictably. I spent too much of my life fighting this crap to waste more of it for no result. I'd rather help the DA to defeat the ANC, as that's where the solution lies.

    Then I stumbled on this thread. Except for the minor difference of opinion about SAHGCA's duty, I agree with Baboon Shooter's general sentiment. I was in the thick of the fight when the FCA went down in 1999-2000 and for several years after. I was one of the most active contributors to Alex Holmes' now defunct SA Firearm Forum, which was arguably our most effective instrument in the pursuit of firearm rights. I was therefore very familiar with Peter Moss who was its outstandingly able moderator for most of its existence. I also had much private communication with him. He could certainly be difficult and exasperating, and pushed me to the point of dissociating from him more than once.

    But he put in a prodigious effort, and in my observation probably contributed more to firearm rights than anyone in SA by a big margin. His judgement about what it would take to secure those rights and why we failed was precisely accurate. Unfortunately he is abrasive in the extreme, and intolerant of those he perceived to be weak and/or unwilling to fight. But he is 100% right in his assessment that victory was within our grasp but was lost because too few would fight for it. His record will not likely ever be equalled, and I will see that he gets credit for it, if no-one else does.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Found on News24

    I'm with Dick with this one. Although I've never met the Mossman, he has done more to secure what "rights" we currently have than most people on GunSite.

    And yes, he is impossible to work with.

    But you guys are concentrating on the messenger while losing track of the message. And a very high percentage of what Peter Moss has said through the years has been the gospel truth -- pointing out Peter's many faults does not change that.

    Dick, I disagree with you on the battle having been lost. While we indeed could have won, decisively, if more than a handful of people got off their arses and actually did something, the battle is far from lost. However, we could have had gun ownership as a right (like the USA 2nd amendment) and that has been lost, I think. And I would ascribe this to human nature -- most people only put in effort when they themselves are involved, and stop that effort when their problem has been resolved -- few fight for the greater good.

    Peter Moss was definitely in it for the greater good.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Found on News24

    Dick, it is not about the arguments and sentiments around the threat to our rights and what should be done about it that I, for one, will not associate with any initiative instigated or actively participated in by Peter, it is about the way in which he and a very few other people have treated myself and others in the past.

    Believe it or not, we all (mostly) agree and are willing to work together for the greater good.

    My experience has been that Peter won't. For two years or so know I have seen his incoherent, inaccurate, offensive and downright rude treatment of others whenever the issue of firearms rights were discussed.

    Again and again he has came out and belittled any- and evrybody who had an idea, a plan, a question or a suggestion but every single time he refuses to answer the one single question of what he would have us do then, besides for vague and dark intimations of 'how the ANC overthrew apartheid' - which sounds to me like an exhortation to engage in illegal acts - and a call for 'Zero gun control' - which to me sounds far-fetched, impossible, a good way to alienate those who arre still undecided about the issue and downright irresponsible. Logical and civilised discussion about anything is beyond his capabilities however in my experience.

    I will be hard-pressed to tar you with the same brush as I have always found you to be reasonable, polite and able to clearly and calmly argue a point without resorting to personal attacks and deflecting the arguments.

    Again, my position on Peter is not influenced by his beliefs or gun politics, but by the way he behaves and treats others.
    [b]Be ready for anything, and if his head is not at least two meters away from the body, do not 'assume' he is dead and out of the fight.[/b] [I]- Ikor[/I]

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Found on News24

    Hi Johan, An effort excluding Peter and me if that is what you want but an effort, you have guys on the forum that could carry it forward, probable much better an I or Peter could, We need something.
    Think ahead, what are you going to do with all of your spare time, no hunting, no range, no SA Hunt, no Collectors, no guns, no Gunsite, no dealers, no trainers, nothing? A horrible thought? What can be done about it now? Be objective, not personal, what do you want for your kids and their kids?

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Found on News24

    Quote Originally Posted by Baboon Shooter View Post
    Hi Johan, An effort excluding Peter and me if that is what you want but an effort, you have guys on the forum that could carry it forward, probable much better an I or Peter could, We need something.
    Think ahead, what are you going to do with all of your spare time, no hunting, no range, no SA Hunt, no Collectors, no guns, no Gunsite, no dealers, no trainers, nothing? A horrible thought? What can be done about it now? Be objective, not personal, what do you want for your kids and their kids?
    Here you go BS: http://www.gunsite.co.za/forums/show...e-Organisation

    AFAIK this was the last time this specific topic was floated here, and a very good example of the way in which the CrimeFree crowd handles debates.

    It's been a year and almost two months and Bodie has yet to keep his (rather derisive) promise to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by bodie View Post
    I will get back to that issue in a while.
    Life is not always about instant gratification, so you will have to wait a while longer.
    [b]Be ready for anything, and if his head is not at least two meters away from the body, do not 'assume' he is dead and out of the fight.[/b] [I]- Ikor[/I]

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