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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by shark_za View Post
    A friend owns a Musgrave experimental pistol.

    Things changed at the wrong time and it was never followed through with.
    Hi, is it possible for you to obtain a picture of this gun and some information on how your friend obtained it?

    I have never heard of a Musgrave pistol but am very interested in any further info.

  2. #12
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    Its sitting in a gunshop...
    He forgot he owned it till I reminded him.

    I'll go past and get some photo's.

  3. #13

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    That would be great. Thank you!

    Do you think the gun is for sale?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by shark_za View Post
    A friend owns a Musgrave experimental pistol.

    Things changed at the wrong time and it was never followed through with.

    as a matter of fact Musgrave should be credited with the Z88 pistol. they reversed engineered it from the Beretta. one or two new ones was actually made in Musgrave. so if you want to see a musgrave pistol just take a look at Z88.

    when the hole process was done and Musgrave was ready to start production Denel realized that Musgrave did not have the production capacity to see to to the need of the then SADF and SAP. so they shifted the production to Lyttelton.

  5. #15

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    Interesting. Do you know of any written source of information regarding the Z88?

  6. #16
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    ultramange, i dont know of anything official , but if you want to know something specific i can try and find out.

  7. #17

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    I am trying to collect us much information as possible while people who were part of the early South African gun industry are still arround. Background to the Z88 pistol is of great interest to me. Why was that Beretta model chosen as a basis, names of SA designers and businessmen involved in licensing of the Z88 design/reverse engineering. The debt of involvement from Beretta and the SA government etc. I am after the full picture, not only technical specifications on the gun. The SA gun history is full of fantastic stories, but no one seems to have bothered writing it down. It is sad, SA has built a world class arms industry, and the civilian hand gund industry was definitally part of it. These are African firearms made by Africans for African conflicts - it is unique and I want to know everything about it.

    If you have information or contacts that can through some light on these issues I would be deeply greatful.

  8. #18
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    a close family member was involved with the Z88 birth. maybe you should think of a couple of specific questions and i will ask him.

  9. #19

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    Fantastic. Here comes a few questions:

    1. Why was the Beretta choosen as a basis (i.e. purely technical/performance or also political/availability)?
    2. Who was responible for the project (chief engineer, project leader, government/army/police)?
    3. Were there other contemplated options for guns to base the SA needs on?

    I am very greatful for any answers that you may find.

  10. #20
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    o.k. just spoke to him on the phone.

    question 1: a lot of pistols were considered and tested like the colts; HK's glock and so on. basically all the pistols you can think of that had a good name in the late 80's.

    a couple of things swung it in favour of of the Beretta 92. due to sanctions not a lot of weapon manufacturers was available for the deal. however at the time Musgrave was the s-african agent for Beretta. so the 92 model was available no questions asked. another pro for the Beretta base was that at the same time the us police and military awarded Beretta one of the largest deals to supply pistols to the us. this was done after extensive testing by the us of several pistols.

    not many people know this but Beretta eventually took Armscor/Krygkor to court due to copy violations over the Z88. remember Musgrave also made a riot shotgun of the Barr eta A300 semi-auto shot gun. known as the Musler (mus = MUSgrave and ler =Mr MusLER the engineer).

    there's a lot of urban legends surrounding the court case that can simply be smiled about. such as the judge phoning from the international Court patent violations asking the person in charge why they did not attend the court hearing. the guy on this side simply said it was not allowed for him to travel there. upon which the judge went berserk but had to except the fact when the s-african told him that it was due to travel limitations put on s-africans due to sanctions. so, he said unless the judge had the power to overturn international sanctions he is sorry but he cannot attend the court hearing. the judge was by now as mad as rabid dog but was powerless. but apparently one final answer the s-afrcan gave him made him flip. the judge as a last resort to ascertain if there is any copy violations asked the s-african to explain what was the difference between the Beretta and the Z88. the man replied: " That is simple , the Z88 is much better than the Beretta".

    now of course this story was always denied. apparently some money was exchanged between Armscor and Beretta. unconfirmed

    2. i will private post you the names of the project manager and one of the chief "designers"

    3. now question 3 you will have to explain a bit not sure what you want there.
    Last edited by 300H&H; 11-04-2010 at 21:47.

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