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  1. #1
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    Default DI vs Piston AR's again

    OK I replied to a thread last night whereby I mentioned the benefits of an AR in Piston configuration , In no way did I mention DI in any way, but still received a very defensive response from a pro DI OP?

    Firstly let me say that in my opinion I dont think DI AR's will be going anywhere! WHY

    1. It has proven the test of time!!! Cant Argue with that as long as its kept clean on a regular basis
    2. Replacement Parts are easier to get than some Piston systems. THATS A REAL FACT to consider!
    3. Some say its more accurate ?? maybe on the older Piston AR's but I dont believe this to be a issue any more.
    4. Some say carrier tilt is a big issue on the Piston AR's ,,, again maybe on some older Piston AR's
    5. More parts can fail on a Piston AR.. very true cant dispute that fact!
    6. Heavier than the standard DI rifle,once again maybe older generation Piston Driven AR's

    This is some great advantages but lets not say that Piston AR's don't have a place in the new world WHY

    1.There are many piston driven slr's including the AK-47 which has proven this technology can work.
    2.The Piston AR does not deposit dirt where it feeds the next round , cleaner vs more reliability.
    3. And most important from many reviews I have read this far is that the Bolt and BCG says much cooler allowing a longer serviceable life of these components. There have been many scientific tests to prove this I can post if required.
    4. I have heard some say its even more accurate than DI? This I don't believe personally but there are some that show stats to prove it?


    Dont wont to start a technical debate but I believe both platforms have there advantages and disadvantages.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: DI vs Piston AR's again

    Not sure where to start, but here goes. BTW, I own examples of both.

    DI
    1. By correctly lubing it, you won't need to clean it any more than you would a piston gun, under normal circumstances. We don't generally run our guns to their failure points.

    2. Replacement parts are easier to get than all piston guns. Pistons are almost different for each manufacturer, if your one goes out of business, well then you're screwed. There is no standard piston, but some are certainly better than others.

    3. I don't think a piston AR will out shoot a DI gun, I might be mistaken, but don't think so. A piston moving across the top of a barrel must have more effect that a puff of hot air?

    4. Carrier tilt is an issue in most piston designs. The AR bolt carrier does not run on rails like most piston driven guns so the carrier has less stability. In most systems (short stroke), the piston impacts the gas key which is located at the top of the carrier, towards the front, this is off centre and creates a seesaw effect, tilting the carrier. The DI rifle pumps gas through the carrier key, into the centre of the carrier where it expands and moves the bolt ( effectively a piston now) directly to the rear. = no carrier tilt.

    5. True, and get lost

    6. This is still true for like for like configurations.

    Piston Rifles

    1. True, but they were designed this way from the ground up. The pistons forces and rails, etc were designed with this in mind. They appear to function better in the shorter barrelled rifles.

    2. Cleaner, more reliable, that's debatable due to the other issues it potentially has. Think of the rifles as systems, which system is more reliable?

    3. Quite possibly, but it'll be easier to get replacement DI bolts and carriers.

    4. Meh.

    Just my thoughts on this. There are very good piston systems out there and I'd never part with mine, but I wouldn't part with my DI gun either. They both awesome guns, get one of each and enjoy them both.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: DI vs Piston AR's again

    Uncle Tom:

    I guess you are referring to my reply? And if not enjoy reading the PDF anyway.

    So here is my contribution.

    "in no way dit I mention DI in any way"

    I guess I am a bit clairvoyant then when you wrote: "it does not shit where it feeds” What would that refer to if not DI AR – it is an old and often rehashed internet cliché.

    but still received a very defensive response from a pro DI OP?"

    If you construed my reply as defensive you are mistaken – I like and support and shoot all platforms and I do not have a favorite one per se (although I may have a favorite rifle or 2 , coincidently which I do and one is piston and the other DI) and I have no issue with either.

    What I do have an issue with is:

    1) The fact that the cliché is totally disparaging to the ingenious Stoner system and the intricate knowledge it took of Scientific Gas Laws to design the system (in this regard I am posting a PDF file that contains an explanation by Patrick Sweeney) of the workings of the Stoner rifle system;

    2) generalizations and internet re-hashed misinformation like: “more reliable in the long”. I refer once again to the links I provided in the thread as reference to reliability written by people with unquestionable experience as well as the PDF file attached. Also read Patrick Sweeney’s latest book AR15 Volume 4 on the torture test he put piston AR through with some DI AR thrown in for controller in his testing and review , both systems of which came out with flying colors btw.

    All of Patrick Sweeney’s books are worth while reading and he has no horse in the race either way – he has a lot of experience in building, testing, fixing and shooting more Ars and other SLRs of different platforms and different manufacturers than anyone else out there that I am aware of.

    It is my mission and a passion to experience the things I write about in respect of firearms and not just repeat what I read on the internet.

    I am fortunate to have spent, and continue to do so currently and regularly, quite a bit of time and ammo on different platform SLRs like DI AR15 in 5,56 and 308, Piston AR15 in 5,56 and 308, Sig553, Sig556R, Sig751, FN-FAL original and SA58, LM, DASHPROD, VZ58, Bushmaster ACR, AK47.

    On these platform that I have used, and still use, there are short stroke piston system/s, long stroke piston system/s and DI system/s.

    I have shot more rounds through piston system SLRs and I am currently shooting more piston system rifles than DI rifles.

    For me the Piston AR versus DI AR debate is stale like the 9mmP versus 45ACP debate although a lucid discussion on the pros and cons of each system is entertaining. It just gets tedious to try and rewrite replies every time it comes and yes there are several threads on Gunsite in respect of DI AR, Piston AR, DI v Piston AR, DI AR v AK platform etc etc.

    Imo they are all good and if compared to the car you drive you will find a reason for yourself to commit to one of them, or if you are lucky more than one, or if you are even luckier maybe several.

    The PDF file for which I am inserting the link below is a very informative review and article by Patrick Sweeney from his AR15 Volume3 book printed and distributed by the Gun Digest. The PDF information is contained in Chapter 2: What is This Piston Stuff Anyway where he explains in great detail how the DI system works scientifically and practically as well as how the piston system works and what the pros and cons of each are. In the end it does not matter and both are very good but not for the same reasons and same intended special/niche uses.

    Read away and enjoy – it is good information and good education if it is something you are interested in.

    In my opinion everyone interested in the subject can make much more educated comments once they have read this article.

    I wanted to attach the PDF file to make it easier for members to read but the file is to big and not allowed for me to attach.

    Maybe Admin will see their way clear to attach the PDF Article you can find here:
    http://www.gundigest.com/wp-content/...nsDownload.pdf


    Last edited by DS; 20-02-2013 at 10:11.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: DI vs Piston AR's again

    Keep this on the subject - if you do not have a contribution that is representaitve of the thread heading do not post.

    The OP started this thread because another was closed due to non subject posts.
    Last edited by DS; 20-02-2013 at 12:12.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: DI vs Piston AR's again

    Thanks Khumba I will definitely read the article and let you know my opinion, too many people with very little life experience on this site..............imho

  6. #6
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    Default Re: DI vs Piston AR's again

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Tom View Post
    Thanks Khumba I will definitely read the article and let you know my opinion, too many people with very little life experience on this site..............imho
    I am cool , let us know what you think.

  7. #7
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    Default

    I've read 1-4 volumes of book of the AR. I did this before purchasing my first rifle as I wanted to be able to make the best possible choice when I made my purchase and the only way to do so is through educating yourself. I was also concerned about everything I'd read on the internet about how utterly crud the DI system was. Was practically on the verge of ordering a conversion kit before I read those books. Afterwards I realised how much of the "information" out there was such utter hogwash ("milspec"?).

    Now I want a piston AR for cool factor... not because I think it will be better :-D.

    I also want a bolt action AR DMR though... so maybe I'm just loopy >.<

  8. #8

    Default Re: DI vs Piston AR's again

    The Eugene Stoner is an extremely well thought out system; particularly with a rifle length barrel. There is however a lot of debate on shorter barrels which seem to sacrifice some reliability as opposed to rifle length. Very interesting technical article by Armalite on their website dealing with this. Sweeny in his first book does criticise the poor AR magazines and compared to the AK there is no comparison.Chas Lotter in a conversation some time back explained a reason for why the AK is so reliable. In short there is huge space below the bolt carrier for any dirt to go. It must also be remembered that the AK has a tapered round which definitely enhances feeding. I had a noticable bulge in a factory AK round the other day, never thought that it would feed; well I was wrong. Whilst the AK has way exceeded my expectations in every single respect I am devoting this year to extensive shooting with the AR in that I have now come to believe that it too is a truly excellent design and I want to get to understand the system in depth.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: DI vs Piston AR's again

    So in short... Buy whichever one floats your boat when you get to the gunshop? DI vs Piston will become a discussion like 308 vs 30-06, the only split you'll really have is that one guy likes one system over the other, traditionalist vs progressive views. I don't own an AR in any respect so whilst my opinion may be uninformed (uncle tom), I do have the right to raise it and seek enlightenment... Having said all this, I do think ppl need to be reminded that forums aren't the end all on info... They are at best personal opinions, as are the books by the sweeney dude. True, impartial tests are impossible for someone who's grown up on a system. As has been said, both have merits and downsides. Best way is to talk with someone who has one in the spec you want and get a direct hands on assessment. Handle the rifle, feel the system work, then make up your mind. I've fallen for the "the internet forums say" way too many times...

  10. #10
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    Default Re: DI vs Piston AR's again

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Tom View Post
    Thanks Khumba I will definitely read the article and let you know my opinion, too many people with very little life experience on this site..............imho
    It comes down to this, both systems work. I have AK's, DI AR's, Piston AR's and they all work. My AK's will take more abuse but all systems work well. If you take care of your weapon, it will take care of you.

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