Grip during mag-change

[Pirate]

At the last IPSC club-shoot, the RO mentioned to me that my muzzle comes very close to lifting "over the berm" during mag changes, which may land me in trouble during competitions. I had a look at my mechanics at home, and came to the conclusion that my thumb is too short

I bring the gun in nice and close, tilt it towards the right (magwell to the left), but then in order to reach the mag release with my right thumb I need to break the grip somewhat, tilting the gun upwards with my right index finger: this is the problem the RO pointed out.

Hence, over to the experts: Because this is my SD gun (M&P9c), my first question is: "is there a disadvantage, in an SD situation, of doing it like this?" Secondly however: "Is there a better way, that would also be more acceptable from the gaming viewpoint?" Soon (not as soon as I'd hoped...) I'd have an M&P9 VTAC for sport use and I hope to start competing a bit more seriously next year.

I use the medium backstrap on the 9c, and over the weekend I ran 100rd through the gun with the small backstrap fitted, to see if it may perhaps give my thumb the extra reach. It didn't and mag changes required the same "tilt" ... but it did change the felt recoil to "slightly unpleasant after a while". Groups from 10m were sh!tter than usual too, and slightly more towards the "low left" than usual, possibly because of a slightly changed trigger finger position from what I'm used to. Therefore empirically determined that the smaller backstrap has no advantages for me.

Would appreciate to hear from the experts!

:- P

[Psychosis]

I drop the mag before\while I bring the gun into my 'work zone' ... ie: release weak-hand to reach for the next mag, and simultaneously depress the mag release with the strong hand ...

The fact that the gun is still vertical at that point helps the mag drop out... only once the gun is up close do I do the pivot to the right (hopefully, by this time, my support hand is also coverging, and meets the FA as this happens).

Perhaps consider trying it this way? ... it should also shave a few 10th's of a second off your mag change times, and help to alleviate the 'over the berm' problem, since at worst, if the FA is still vertical, the muzzle would point slightly left a little - given the 'twist' that you describe, and if I understand your mechanics a bit...

Another option, is to see if you can get an enlarged\extended mag release button? (I don't know the M&P's well enough to know it this is even feasible).

[Kayback]

I have double the trouble with this. (triple?) Training scars from shooting at FBSSC where the backstop is what, 75m?. I also have dinky thumbs so break my grip in quite an exaggerated manner. I also use the "in the box" style reloads.

I've had more than one "muzzle" call while shooting at KSC. My 1911 reloads are better, and I'm hoping my Glock 17 reloads will be even better than that, but I've more or less had to resort to hitting the mag release with my weak hand as I break my grip. This has an added benefit of allowing me to strip the mag from the mag well if needed as well as keeping the gun orientated "correctly".

KBK

[BigT]

Easiest solution may be to switch you mag release to the right side of the gun, that way you can use your trigger finger to release it.

Always try release the mags with the gun vertical , it get gravity to assist.

If you don't or can't switch the mag release try releasing your strong hand grip slightly when you're about to reload, then when the weak hand comes off the gun get the left hand index finger to drag the gun to the left of center in your grip until the thumb can reach. Insert fresh mag, drop slide if necessary and then the weak hand re-seats the gun in a proper grip as it reestablishes the firing grip.

You are only loosening the strong hand enough to allow the gun to move slightly in the grip , no more. Also its a very subtle movement only a couple of degrees.

[StefanM]

IPSC rulebook says that muzzle safe is within 90 degrees of perpendicular to the backstop. So if you point the gun over the backstop, but less than 90 degrees up while reloading, unless specifically stated in the host range rules, you cannot be DQ'ed.

[Psychosis]

IPSC rulebook says that muzzle safe is within 90 degrees of perpendicular to the backstop. So if you point the gun over the backstop, but less than 90 degrees up while reloading, unless specifically stated in the host range rules, you cannot be DQ'ed.

I disagree... my understanding is that the 90 Degree is only on the lateral plane...

Vertical plane, if you point over the berm, you are going home (I have seen this happen more than once... DQ's for pointing muzzle over the berm, within the 90 degree vertical, during a reload)...

[StefanM]

What is the wording of the rule as in the newest rule book? I don't have mine in the office now.

[Psychosis]

What is the wording of the rule as in the newest rule book? I don't have mine in the office now.

I'll have a look... but here is a link in the interim...

http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf

If we find that you are correct, then all good... but let us rather be sure

[Psychosis]

So far, found this:

10.5.2 Allowing the muzzle of a firearm to point uprange, or past the default, or specific safe angles of fire during a
course of fire, (limited exceptions: see Rules 5.2.7.3 and 10.5.6).

where:
5.2.7.3 A holster which permits the muzzle of a holstered handgun to point further than 1 meter from the
competitor's feet while standing relaxed;

10.5.6 Allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point rearwards uprange beyond a radius of 1 meter from a
competitor's feet during drawing or re-holstering. The 1 meter concession only applies when a competitor is
facing directly downrange.


Found the 'specific safe angles' they refer to be as follows...
2.1.2 Safe Angles of Fire – Courses of fire must always be constructed taking into account safe angles of fire.
Consideration must be given to safe target and frame construction and the angle of any possible ricochets.
Where appropriate the physical dimensions and suitability of backstops and side berms must be determined
as part of the construction process. Unless otherwise specified, the default maximum muzzle angle is 90
degrees in all directions, measured from the front of the competitor facing directly center downrange.
Violations are subject to Rule 10.5.2.
2.1.2.1 Subject to the direction and approval of the Regional Director, stage(s) or range specific muzzle
angles (reduced or increased) may be permitted. Violations are subject to Rule 10.5.2. Full details
of the applicable angles and any conditional factors (e.g. a reduced vertical muzzle angle only
applies when a finger is inside the trigger guard), must be published in advance of the match and
must be included in the written stage briefings (also see Section 2.3).

It seems that changes to safe angle requirements needs to be communicated? What if such is not done... ?
You could appeal the 'over the berm' ruling, even if such is considered a ruling as stated in the allowable match specific requirements, but was not communicated prior, or during the stage briefing...

[superlarry]

It seems that changes to safe angle requirements needs to be communicated? What if such is not done... ?
You could appeal the 'over the berm' ruling, even if such is considered a ruling as stated in the allowable match specific requirements, but was not communicated prior, or during the stage briefing...

Correct. It will be subject to range conditions and/or local range rules. You could probably appeal a DQ if the conditions are not communicated in the briefings as noted in 2.1.2.1, BUT i would suggest asking anyway before commencing your shoot. Some RO's will default to the top of the berm as safety angle and you will get a muzzle warning, even if the rules state otherwise