Definition - "Use of a fire-arm"

**farmer-el** · 23-11-2009, 20:13

Hey guys.... will the legal fundis help me with this one. In terms of the FCA use of a firearm is removing it from its holster, not firing it. Am I right with this?
Help me with the following situation... I farm chickens and am very "safe" in that I don't sell any birds off the farm. In addition it is our policy not to hold cash on the farm and all our staff know it. I live in a relitively safe area as far as armed robberies, but alot of "oppertunistic" crime happens. Theft of stock when the owners are off the farm etc. The following happened. I just want to know how to better handle it in future. My dogs were barking at 02h45 one morning. Not there normal barking at game which has wondered to close to the yard, but an agressive bark. Got up, took a torch and handgun and walked towards where they were barking. I walked up alongside one of my chicken houses and heard voices towards the road. I saw three guys climbing through the boundry fence. I realised they were drunk and had obvioulsy walked from the shabeen a couple of k's in the valley. These were "oppertunistic" thieves, but from experience the fact that they were drunk makes it dangerous. I know they don't have firearms, but deffinatley knives. I shout at them. Two run off, but one stays back. My life is not in immediate danger, but could be. Am I "allowed" to fire warning shots which I know will be "safe" to get him in the right frame of mind to leave, cause at the moment no real crime has been commiitted and I have no intention to try arrest him cause that will take me out of my safe zone and leave my family open to harm should anything happen to me. Often knowing someone to be armed puts the criminal in the right frame of mind before things escalate. Once shots are fired though, the police will arrive cause neighbours will call them. Best response time is normally 20mins, thats why I wouldn't call them when the guys were coming through the fence. I face no real losses with the theft of a couple of chickens, but if people no they can get away with it it would happen nightly. I just don't want legal issues of "why did you use a gun". Any advice appreciated.

**Prodigal** · 23-11-2009, 21:07

I'm no legal okie, but Chapter 16, 120(3)(a)&(b) says:
It is an offence to—

a) cause bodily injury to any person or cause damage to property of any person by negligently using a firearm, an antique firearm or an airgun;

b) discharge or otherwise handle a firearm, an antique firearm or an airgun in a manner likely to injure or endanger the safety or property of any person or with reckless disregard for the safety or property of any person; or

I don't think in this case it's negligent and you didn't discharge in a manner to injure or endanger. Once the BG has fled, you'd have to confirm that he appeared to have the intent to advance on you and that he had a knife and that a warning shot was the best option to preserve the right to life (both BG and yours).

**Teufel Hund** · 23-11-2009, 21:08

I'm no legal expert but IMHO do not fire a warning shot, I don't know how big your chicken farm is or how far it is situated from the nearest houses but should you fire a warning shot, you could get charged with negligent discharge of a firearm in a built up/municipal area. Also, all it takes is one of the drunk tresspassers to mention to the police that you pointed a firearm at him/them and his friends to collaborate the story, you then sit in a world of poo. The headlines would probably read something as follow, "Racist white farmer attempts to murder innocent farm workers" this is unfortunately the type of shit most farmers are stuck with these days. IIRC you only need to issue a verbal warning to the offenders, should they then not comply and (very important) THREATEN your life you can resort to using your firearm. If I can give you some advice, keep your firearm holstered while approaching the suspects and keep a safe distance from them that gives you a big enough gap to react in before the suspects can actually come within contact distance from you. Practice drawing your gun from the holster until it becomes so natural that you almost don't even have to think about the draw. Seeing that most incidents takes place during night time remember to practice drawing, shooting and reloading your firearm while you are holding your flashlight.
You could consider resorting to the less lethal option like pepperball products, I'm not very familiar with them but from what I've seen they seem to work OK. And always CYA (cover your ass) put up warning signs that states that the farm is private property and trespassing is prohibited also state that the premises is guarded by armed guards, should something then happen, you can at least prove that you did warn the culprit both verbally and in writing.

**ikor** · 23-11-2009, 22:07

I am coming from a different place than SA, but here, 'warning shots' are almost never condoned by our courts...no matter what else they are, they are always 'deadly force'...loosing a bullet in some direction or other. If you should hit an 'innocent victim' you are fooked. (And you just KNOW that anyone you hit will be called an innocent victim!)

I have several 'Artillery Simulators' close at hand, (really good stuff) and certainly you guys have the equivalent of our 'M80's' (grenade simulators) or 'Cherry Bombs' as fireworks I would think, so maybe if they are a ways off and no direct, immediate threat, something like that would be better for you?

Maybe you need a 'Kamikaze' dog? ;D

**Teufel Hund** · 23-11-2009, 22:35

Came accross this item from Safe Case Corp, they market it for farm defence. Might be a viable option for you.
SC 1230 STALIN ORGAN - (4 barrel) The unit is easy to install and reload, plus it does not contravene any gun laws and works off a trip-wire activation.

**Corné** · 24-11-2009, 14:21

1. Do not fire a warning shot.....it is not required by law and can cause more shit that good.

2. Having your firearm out and in plain sight under the conditions described is IMO totally defendable and justifiable as long as you did not point / aim at the drunken bastards while they did not pose a thread to you.

**abhm** · 24-11-2009, 14:33

let me agree NO WARNING SHOTS there aint such an animal, its a complete fallacy like saying mimimun force is law (it aint!) no warning shots!

**gizmo16** · 24-11-2009, 14:50

This may be true, but obviously the 3 drunks could always insist you pointed at them anyway, and again, your in the poo.

Maybe better not to let them know you are armed until you actually get into the situation where drawing a firearm is necessary to shoot or when there it is more clear that there is imminent danger?

Tough call, I'm guessing each situation has its own variables, hard to put down a blanket answer.

Originally Posted by Corné

2. Having your firearm out and in plain sight under the conditions described is IMO totally defendable and justifiable as long as you did not point / aim at the drunken bastards while they did not pose a thread to you.

**abhm** · 24-11-2009, 14:56

well lets get legal then
what was the reasonable amount of force you could have used to control the subject which would have been proportional to the situation

dude they had knives thats a potentially deadly force situation, google teuller drill!

once the other two had left was the other drunk enough that a good dose of pepper spray and a good smack upside the head would have worked? given that you do have the firearm as you back up maybe this is an excellent place in the tactical toolbox for Sean's pepper balls! what is your body language telling others, I am unsure of myself rush me? or dont fuck with me charlie boy?
Lots of questions go get yourself on Swatties course!