70 yrs old shop owner shot dead at point blank range

**spiggs** · 24-09-2015, 18:49

My view! They deserve the same treatment, if not worse! Arab justice, although brutal, sometimes seems appropriate

WTF was that? Look at that scumbag, look at his facial expression and look at his eye's!
That is the kind of sick fuck you take to the vet and put down!

**cws** · 24-09-2015, 18:58

Originally Posted by Gleock

That almost seems like an AD?

Feeling the same way.

00:08 Gunman was busy grab victim's but meantime the gun went off. there is no reason to pull victim closer and then open fire at point blank range.

00:10 After shot the victim the gunman continued pulling victim and hold his head down for about 2sec. which might indicate the gunman's reflex was have shop owner in control under his gun point.

00:06 After shot the victim the gunman turned his head and looking for his fellow armed robber who standing at far back. which might indicate what just happened wasn't part of the plan?

However, even it is the case, it still doesn't change the fact that armed robber took innocent people's live when they committing crime.

**karoo.vellies** · 24-09-2015, 21:27

Originally Posted by KK20

When our system shows independence, equality (ito rich or poor to have same level of defence) , quality and maturity then only would I be in favour of it in RSA.

So you mean you will never support it.

Thing is this, I can understand why you feel this way and agree that every person irrespective of social status deserves a fair trail, but in cases like this one where you don't need much of a trail to see this guy is guilty of killing this man, why not? Why not hang or put him to sleep, quick and painless, remove him from society permanently. Now we have to feed this piece of shit until he gets out in a few years to come back and do the same, so we feed him again, he gets out and do the same, we feed him again, he gets out again do it some more and so on and so on and so on.

These guys do not rehabilitate, look at Polsmoor prison for example, seen a docu on the gangs in the prison, those guys openly admits to killing other inmates, raping men ex. Those fuckers will be back on the street one day rubbing shoulders with your family, your kids, your loved ones!!! WTF do we do with these animals?

**bandit** · 25-09-2015, 05:46

Clear photographs.......clear video recording........wonder how long it would take to secure an arrest and conviction.....

(sarcasm)

**Mikey** · 25-09-2015, 08:03

Law isn't always justice.

**marshy** · 25-09-2015, 08:34

Just hang the f*$kers

**PCfanatic** · 25-09-2015, 10:37

Originally Posted by Wanderin' Zero

Can ask my fellow lawyers on this forum why, in such incontrovertibly clear circumstances, these criminals shouldn't be hanged? What room for doubt is there and what mercy requires that such mercilessness be forgiven?

I must still read the rest of this thread. But WZ, for me, this is the post of the year

**GK21** · 25-09-2015, 11:05

My two cents worth justifying the death penalty for murders such as these.

The Constitution and the protection it affords (such as the right to life) is a social contract between citizens (including all those who live in the country) and the State. The contract is basically as follows:

If you keep to to the law, we the State will ensure protection of all your human rights. However if you take a life in aggravating circumstances (such as premeditated murder) you have committed a material breach of that social contract and we will no longer protect you. In such circumstances anybody could kill the murderer and his right to life is not protected by the State. It is a concept taken from old Germanic law...you were declared "voelvry" and therefore not afforded the protection of the tribe. So any member of the tribe could kill you and you were not protected from such killing.

However since we cannot have people running around murdering people declared voelvry, the State takes over that killing of the voelvry person so that he is not killed by citizens but by the State so as to prevent vigilantism.

It is a pretty simple justification for the death penalty and I have set it out rather inelegantly, but it works for me.

However, that is a justification in an ideal world. The problem is that in a country such as SA with a failing justice system and corrupt police officials....when can we ever be sure that a person got a fair trial. Of course it is easy with the CCTV footage we viewed in this post but there are thousands more murders where the evidence is not that clear.

Read for example Alkema's book "Fruit of the poisoned tree" concerning the murder of Inge Lotter in Stellenbosch with a hammer where the police appeared to have falsely implicated her boyfriend by stating that they took his fingerprints of a DVD she hired the afternoon of the murder (when the boyfriend was supposed to be at work) when experts testified that the fingerprints were more likely taken off a glass he drank from the previous evening. They did this to put him at the scene. This is just one example. If he did not have the funds to fly in an American expert to testify about this he would probably have been found guilty and if we had a death penalty he may well have swung.

Anyway I have always believed that the death penalty is not a sufficient general deterrent (other than specific deterrence of the guilty person since he clearly will not do it again). However it does not necessarily deter other criminals and murderers if they do not believe that they will be caught and if caught, do not believe that they will be prosecuted. In other words if the risk is low the death penalty may not be sufficient deterrent.

What does deter is a high probability of being caught, prosecuted and serving long jail sentences (or death penalty if it is warranted in the specific case).

So we have to fix the system before worrying about reinstating the death penalty.

Having said that I would even volunteer for the firing squad or the hangman's job for that scumbag who we viewed in the video (which BTW clearly looks like a hit to me and not a robbery).

**KK20** · 25-09-2015, 11:15

^ you explained it for me, thank you. )

**Wanderin' Zero** · 25-09-2015, 11:15

Good write-up. Just to be clear, I am not suggesting a general usage of the death penalty. But I am suggesting that in some circumstances the evidence is so incontrovertible and the circumstances so aggravating, that perhaps it would be justified.

I am not persuaded that long prison sentences are an effective deterrent; if that was true, we would have far less crime in this country than we do.

That the criminal justice system is not effective is entirely clear in the number of "community interventions" we see on a regular basis where purported criminals are subject to violence by members of their community.