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Thread: Powder limits

  1. #41
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    Default Re: Powder limits

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodrage View Post
    Perhaps purely on a legal question, it may be asked whether or not the Minister is allowed to make regulations dealing specifically with the amounts that individuals may possess. Sec 33 confers on the minister the power to make regulations concerning various matters, but nowhere is it stipulated that he is empowered to deal with such amounts that have been subsequently promulgated.
    To my jaundiced eye, there are only possibly three subsections dealing with his powers in this regard,viz.
    "The Minister may make regulations regarding-
    b)the use ...of explosives:
    e) the storage of explosives:
    s) any other matter which must be regulated for the protection of life and property against explosions or for the achievement of the objects of this Act."
    If one can argue that the minister is acting ultra vires (beyond the scope of his powers conferred on him by the Act) in fixing an amount which may be possessed by individuals, the limits would be nul and void. For a start, I certainly don't believe he is allowed to fix amounts which can be bought at one time in the regulations. Neither has anything to do with the use or storage of powder.
    Subsection s) deals with other matters which MUST be regulated- irrelevant here.

    If one considers that in a boarding house with 50 licensed firearm boarders each may currently possess at least 500g powder each, 25 kg could be legally stored in that boarding house. That quantity is not considered a safety risk. In fact if they all had enough firearm licences each and could store/possess 2.4kg each at the "current " rate, there would be 125 kg of powder stored in that one premises. 100 boarders =250 kg.
    This would still constitute a legal amount on those premises.
    It can't be argued then that the amount of powder stored in a single spot constitutes a risk according to this. So from a safety point of view,is there any need to draw a distinction between one occupant of the premises possessing 25 kg of powder or the above household/premises having that amount.Or even 250 kg.
    If there is no need to draw the distinction, why is the minister permitted to fix limits.
    The stated purpose of the act is to "provide for the control of explosives" and by fixing a totally arbitrary amount each person may possess does not appear to have any basis if one looks at the above example.
    This is either irrational or ultra vires. There are other ways to provide sufficient control of explosives that are dealt with in the Act. If one looks at Sec 10 in the Act (as opposed to the regulations) dealing with Keeping, storage possession or transportation of explosives, a permit may be issued by an inspector where the explosive is stored otherwise than in "an explosive manufacturing site or an explosive magazine." The inspector can stipulate the conditions for the possession, storage etc., it does not need to be done by the Minister in a regulation.There is no reason why under the Act (Sec 10), a permit can't be obtained from an Inspector on an ad hoc basis after a normal motivated application which would be subject to review/appeal if refused.
    The Chief of the explosives unit does not need to wait for any regulations because the Act makes provision for it anyway.
    Sorry, Rant over.
    Interesting set of arguments, but if I read correctly, that all pertains to the new act, which is not yet promulgated?

  2. #42

    Default Re: Powder limits

    Quote Originally Posted by Gleock View Post
    I interpret it differently, the max amount is per premises and not per person.
    If they intended it to be per person, they would have worded it as such.
    And I [with respect] disagree from you Gleock. The interpretation when reading the above, is on the 'person', be it a he or a she. The person may keep smokeless powder, at his or her premises, that the net mass of which ....

    If the "intent" of the act was to limit a premises to 2.5 kilograms, the word "combined" would have been used.


    If an inspector pitches at my place, he very well may find 4x tins of powder (2.0 kg's) in my safe, as licensed to my person. If he then goes to my partners safe, he might then find 3x tins in her safe, licensed to her person. Both under the 2.5 kg limit, to the person, Legal.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Powder limits

    And another point to consider, that seems to make the limits a bit arbitrary, is that if you hold dedicated status you can actually have an unlimited quantity of propellant on your premises provided it is all decanted into little brass containers each of which has a primer in one end and a projectile in the other end.

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    Default Re: Powder limits

    Quote Originally Posted by BBCT View Post
    And another point to consider, that seems to make the limits a bit arbitrary, is that if you hold dedicated status you can actually have an unlimited quantity of propellant on your premises provided it is all decanted into little brass containers each of which has a primer in one end and a projectile in the other end.
    hahaha well now, as long as it is the same caliber on your license ;-) But then again, one will need a lot more brass and bullets then

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cockroach View Post
    Interesting set of arguments, but if I read correctly, that all pertains to the new act, which is not yet promulgated?
    IIRC the new act is, but the regulations under it aren’t, which is why we’re still working with the old regs.
    - GAMER -

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    Default Re: Powder limits

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaaphaas View Post
    IIRC the new act is, but the regulations under it aren’t, which is why we’re still working with the old regs.
    Correct, so Parliament has assented to the legislation and has passed it onto the police ministry to develop the regulations... and they have failed to do their job... again! Still!

    Useless, useless, useless police minister and ministry!
    "Always remember to pillage before you burn"
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    Default Re: Powder limits

    Paul,
    Pass it on to them if you want- no sweat, even if it gets a bit mangled, the basics are there, hope they can use it if it's sensible!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul View Post
    Correct, so Parliament has assented to the legislation and has passed it onto the police ministry to develop the regulations... and they have failed to do their job... again! Still!

    Useless, useless, useless police minister and ministry!
    Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by malice.
    "At least we do not have to fear an attack by a foreign enemy. The local one is doing splendidly." -A-R

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    Default Re: Powder limits

    Quote Originally Posted by CorditeCrazy View Post
    Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by malice.
    Indeed!

    When dealing with SAPS the first guess is always malice, and it is almost always correct.
    "Always remember to pillage before you burn"
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  10. #50
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    Default Re: Powder limits

    The new regs for explosives surely need to be approved by many role players of which SAPS may be one. We are being severely compromised by the regs not being put in place and I would think that the bigger organisations should put pressure on government to at least ask for a ruling that in the case of propellants the rules be applied allowing 10kg as legal. Should we not stand together and enforce such a ruling?

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