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  1. #1
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    Default Not an equipment race or just being Hypocrites

    Hi all

    I know now that we finally have a forum we can talk lets do so and take off the kid gloves. Your input is needed and you are protected by anonymity. I'm not inviting abuse. I'm just inviting opinions.

    I'm in the position to act on these things and as such I need your input so the sport.

    So with all that finally being said. Now to the topic.

    Pin Shooting claims to not support an equiment race. Where if you don't have Make X Model Y to be competitive. So for Stock Revolver Forced Reload we don't allow full moon clips for revovlers that can't work without them. Revolvers that use pistol/rimless cases. However in Pin Revolver when last did you see somebody win that event by a person that doesn't have an 8 shot revolver? Most likely a Taurus 608 or a Smith & Wesson 627.
    Don't you think that's a little bit unfair?

    Reason why I say this is that I've recently come to read about the original Second Chance shoots (and you American forum members must correct me here) but both the Pin Revolver and Stock Revolver events were forced reloads events. So 6 shot maximum to start off with with reloads unlimited. The difference between the two classes being barrel length only. 6 inch and above being Pin Revolver and Stock Revolver being under 6 inches. (Normal porting rules apply as per our rule book of course.)

    So like we now scramble and pay super inflated prices to get Taurus 608's and 8 shot Smith's in to be competitive, back in the day everybody wanted a fullmoon clip revolver like a 625 and 25. 610's if they felt up to the task of battling that recoil.

    The point I'm trying to make is we allow equipment races in the one class and then discriminate against owners of such revolvers.

    What are your thoughts on this?

  2. #2
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    I haven't shot pins for sometime but I don't think that this is an equipment race.

    In order to be competitive in Pin Revolver you need an 8 shot gun. There is no real raising of the bar or race.

    It's a bit like saying F1 is unfair because it discriminates against my Toyota Corolla.

    Aren't you also only allowed to use quarter moon clips in Stock Revolver?
    Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
    But I know one thing that never dies,
    the glory of the great dead.
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  3. #3
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    I'm with you there. My problem is how it is allowed to be an equipment race in the one event and then for the other event it is frowned upon.

    You are only allowed to use 1/3 moon clips. So 2 bullets at a time and then there is some limitations on how you may arrange the them. So you can't arrange them in a cirlce on a loading block as to allow you to grab all three clips and load them as if it is a full moon clip. Just think that is a bit hypocritical.

  4. #4

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    Interesting. .

    Have not shot pins for ages JHB boys could not organise events and let people know when the shoots were anyway...
    Back to the subject at hand, remember one good shooter who had 2 x 608's reloads were really quick (new york style) so to be competitive, you needed 2 x 608's.

    What is the possiblity of introducing a standard class?
    Only for 6 shot revolvers, possibly of specified/ limited barrel length e.g. 6 " max/ or less than 6" barrels only. Also feel that must state that gun can only be loaded with a speed loader, not full moon clips otherwise you would have to use a 610 / 625 to be competitive. Give some thought to weather jet loaders could be used to perform reloads.

    Think you would provide a platform that would appeal to a number of "standard" 6 shot revolver owners. Much as IDPA/SADPA has done by creating a platform for single stack .45 ACP's by designing a division spacifically for these guns - Custom Defensive Pistol.

  5. #5
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    I am sure when we shot pins you could only load six in a stock revolver. And could only use a back up revolver in pin gun and stock gun.

    The pin gun and pin revolver classes were there for those who wanted to push the envelope a bit with gun mods. Makes sense to allow options for both.
    "Learning only occurs after repetitive ,demoralizing failures!"

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    BigT you are correct. With Stock Revolver you can only load 6 shots. Even if you have an 8 shot revolver. You can also not use speedloaders. However (for example) a 625 cannot function without clips. So they are allowed. But only 2 round clips.

    (BTW where do you get those clips these days?) I can only find full moon clips online.

    However I think it is a bit unfair to allow an equipment race in the one event and then totally discourage it in the next. Well it makes sense I guess but also not.

    Hmmmm...i should approach Smith & Wesson about this. Get some commission on the sales of 625's if i get this pushed through. Hahahaha

    See my main beef with the thing is the way we shoot it was not like in the states. Where you had the option of shooting either Pin or Stock. You have to compete in all the events. Well core events with include Pin Gun, Pin Revolver, 9 Pin, Stock Gun and Stock Revolver. So unlike IDPA where you choose your discipline and shoot it you get forced into the events here and then you can't get the best tools for the job in all the events. (I hope I make sense - I'm starting to lose myself over here)

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    If the sport organisers are serious about developing the sport, they need to partition the guns similar to SADPA, and each group against it's own clock.

    It's really important to eliminate clear equipment advantage , and make skill the differentiator in each group.

    The other big factor that any shooting event needs to take seriously into consideration, is that most of us have guns because we need them, and very few average working people can afford a collection of 'exotic toys'. So by default, if the event requires average working guns, it can become very popular.

    Specifically with pins, I don't see the logic of discriminating against weight and barrel length. It's a fast, instinctive shoot, and bigger, heavier guns are at a disadvantage already by virtue of bulk. If a shooter wants to come play with their 10" .454 Raging Bull, let them.

    A logical way of categorising is

    1. by equipment - same shot revolvers, same reload type [ incl SA gate loaders ]
    2. sub-category by power factor - give the 50AE's something to look forward to.

    It may be necessary to charge the high power factors extra fees to cover the cost of destroyed pins.

    And while I'm on a roll here, how about pins made from ballistic plastic with a lead core to have the exact weight of a regular pin ?

  8. #8
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    Unless something has changed, in pins you shoot against your category just like IDPA.
    "Learning only occurs after repetitive ,demoralizing failures!"

    Pat Rogers (RIP)

  9. #9
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    Not a bad ideas. Food for thought indeed. The idea is to get some kind of world standard going. So those ideas are worth debating.

    Guess what's on the agenda for the next meeting. :)

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigT View Post
    Unless something has changed, in pins you shoot against your category just like IDPA.
    No. Currently for a league shoot there will either be a stock or pin shoot. So you shoot 9 pin, stock gun and stock revolver. The combined scores of these 3 events determines the winner of the day. Likewise the next month there will be a pin shoot (9pin, pin gun, pin revolver). A championship requires the shooting of all 5 to determine the winner.

    So equivalent in IDPA would be that your scores for SSP, ESP, SSR, ESR and CDP would be all added together. So you will have to shoot all the events.

    Don't know if that is a bad thing or not?

    Does anybody know how it worked at the Second Chance shoots? I mean that is what we base the sport on. It was first and foremost the original pin shoot.

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