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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Bushcraft gun - what would/do you choose/use?

    Hi guys,

    thanks for the responses. I have a soft spot for the 410 for a number of reasons - but those are principally sentimental. I understand that the 410 is a relatively poor performing cartridge for wingshooting, but with practice you can shoot small feathered game with it with success. I agree that a small bolt action .22 is probably better suited to scenarios where a follow up shot is of importance - or of course even better - the take down semi 10/22.

    I still have a hankering for the simplicity and versatility of a small caliber, folding combination gun. I think the usability of the 410 is underrated - but I can see why someone would suggest that the break type action is very slow.

    Has anyone come across a take down / folding .22 bolt gun? It only seems to be popular in semi-auto (10/22 fame) configuration.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Bushcraft gun - what would/do you choose/use?

    I like the idea of combination guns and have had plenty of fun with my Savage model 24. Licencing it wasn't an issue.

    Savage model 24 was made in a variety of calibre combinations. The most common is the .22/410 already discussed but I also looked at a 20ga/22Hornet at Classic Arms about 15 years ago. I regretted not buying it for years afterwards. They have also been made in various permutations of .223, .30-06 (I think) & 12ga and probably a few other calibres that I've forgotten over the years but apparently the larger bore versions are a bit unwieldy so the smaller bore versions were more popular. There have also been 2 different types of barrel selector - the early ones had a selector on the right side of the action and later they changed to a selector on the hammer. I think the .410 versions & the 20Ga versions might even use the same frame & barrel blank.

    While I can't recall shooting any birds with my Savage model 24, in my youth I shot a few guineafowl with a bolt-action .410 so it can be done but range is less than a 12Ga. In my adult years I have shot a few rats & rabbits with the .410 barrel of the model 24. The model 24 is chambered for the 3 inch ("magnum") .410 cartridge so any .410 ammo will work. I haven't tried it and wouldn't recommend it but I can recall reading about someone in the US firing .44 Magnum in the .410 barrel of his model 24.

    These days my 10 year old daughter loves shooting at hanging potatoes with the .410 barrel. It is a nice compact size that she can handle & the potatoes explode in a very satisfying manner! It's also a nice simple gun so she can learn the principles - break barrel, need to cock the hammer manually & obviously single shot.

    .410 cases can apparently be made from .303 brass as well as .44 Mag (a bit short though), .444 Marlin and 9.3x74R but I haven't tried any of these myself.

    I'm not sure if it would be my personal ideal choice for a bush gun but if it fits your requirements (which are probably different to mine) I say you should go for it.

    If you decide to get a model 24, be aware that they were sold under the brand name Stevens as well as Savage. All the Stevens branded ones I have seen had plastic stocks that shrink as they age, leaving a loose fit between stock & action. Make sure that you get one with a wooden stock. Googling "Savage model 24" will pick up plenty of info from the US. They come up on the Classic Arms auctions quite regularly.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Bushcraft gun - what would/do you choose/use?

    Hi Messor - I would have to disagree that the 410 has no place in bushcraft - I think a lightweight shotgun has merit for lots of reasons. If you are practiced, then shooting small fowl with a 410 is not extremely difficult, and shooting any other small game on the run/move is not a job for a .22. I agree that you won't be wingshooting in a survival scenario (ammo intensive, low success rate), and that the weight of shotgun ammo makes it an unnecessary hindrance when you can simply carry 1000's of rounds of .22 and acquire food from small game animals indefinitely or until rescue.

    Bushcraft (IMO) is unlike survival in that there is usually a perceived leave date (no rescue required) - and for that reason taking 10 x 410 cartridges along with my 25 .22 rounds does not seem silly to me. I like the idea of a gun that gives me opportunities at fowl like sand grouse, quail and francolin on the wing - but also rabbits and hares while stationary.

    All of that said - I must admit that I might go hungry in a scenario where I could have utilized the quick follow up shot from a .22 bolt, or better yet a semi .22 like the 10/22. I think the joy of bushcraft is that the situation is only as dire as you choose to make it - and what you take with you is almost always a balance of tradition, versatility and modern technology. Where we fall in that spectrum is personal preference - and as always each to their own. That is what makes this kind of thing so enjoyable.

    If I had the piece of mind to do my HMC competency when I did my others - I would already own a 10/22 (OD green makes me drool). That takedown is an awesome piece of kit.


  4. #24
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    Default Re: Bushcraft gun - what would/do you choose/use?

    Thanks for the info BBCT - I think its probably stories like this that have perpetuated my nostalgic outlook on these small bore combination guns. I grew up hearing stories from grandad and dad about shooting rabbits in the veggie patch out on the farm - or going camping "in the mountains/veld" with a savage mod 24.

    I suppose nostalgia almost always correlates negatively with practicality. I admit that I could and probably should just take either my 410 or my .22 on outings and enjoy them as they are - but being able to carry both in the same way my dad and grandad used to has an allure for me that I think anyone will understand.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Bushcraft gun - what would/do you choose/use?

    You see this is where it gets tricky, one must make a distinction between survival and bushcraft.

    If we leave out the survival scenario and focus only on bushcraft then the 410 still doesn't make sense to me, in either single or combo rifle.
    If I am out doing my bushcraft thing I'd much rather have a 12GA, I know I can carry a LOT of 12G rounds, been there done that. I also don't want to carry a combo rifle, I'd much rather carry either a double 12GA, or a semi .22. Because if you are shooting at specific prey with either you have more than 1 shot.

    The 12GA is also very versatile, you can carry a few slugs with which you can down the largest animal at shorter ranges, 1 shot and meat for a month.

    I somehow see from which angle you are coming, different strokes for different okes, it's just not the choice I would make.
    But we want what we want I guess :)

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Bushcraft gun - what would/do you choose/use?

    messor ......ja....in survival your FA is a tool......in bushcraft your FA can be decided more by your heart

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Bushcraft gun - what would/do you choose/use?

    Hi Messor, please know that I am by no means pushing my ideas on you - I just want to explain my reasoning and get some feedback from people who agree and people who don't.

    I agree with the call for a distinction between survival and bushcraft - as most will assume they are the same thing (I believe not). I also agree that shotguns (especially 12g, but not excluding the 410) represent exceptionally versatile platforms - as the ammunition choice is endless. I agree that follow up shots are very useful, particularly when shooting fowl on the wing with a shotgun. But I would have to propose that any of the game that we can legally "hunt" ethically with rimfire in SA is unlikely to be anything that I would need a follow up shot for, at least not so quickly that I couldn't reload and recompose my aim (I am not professing to be a magnificent shot by any means). I say this assuming that if I am shooting a rabbit or a hare from close enough for an ethical kill - I am unlikely to need a follow up shot. If I happen to shank the shot into the body or gut where the animal is likely to run or move any distance - I am unlikely to make effective use of my capacity to shoot again. Chances are that the poor creature is going to topple over, or move some distance and die. If it topples, but requires a coup de grace, I can probably reload in a timely manner and do so (or employ methods not involving the firearm). If it is wounded and disappears from view - I will have to follow it up and shoot it when the opportunity arises, well within the reload time of any single shot configuration. If I specifically want to shoot a small antelope or Spurwing goose, ethics would dictate my choice of caliber, and I would likely take my centerfire rifle or 12g shotgun. If I am going walkabout and want to shoot supper then I think the small bore combination is the tool that lets me shoot one of the examples of small game I am likely to come across.

    I think my fascination, motivation and desire for a .22-410 combination gun is for the following reasons:

    1. I admit wholeheartedly that .22 rifles probably represent the most sensible way to acquire small game. (Cost, noise, weight and and of course a land owner respect point of view).
    2. I believe that the advantage of shotgun use in bushcraft and small game hunting (specific scenarios perhaps) is worth considering - but not so much that I would readily leave the mighty BRNO .22 at home.
    3. I do agree that shotgun ammo is heavy, and far bulkier than rimfire ammo.
    4. I believe that the 410 cartridge is only considered useless because its more popular older brother (12g) has left big shoes to fill.
    5. 410 ammo is considerably more rucksack friendly than 12g.
    6. Shotgun break actions lend themselves to folding up and stowing in a rucksack.
    7. I think follow up shots with a .22 are not an absolute necessity when shooting rabbits, hares or stationary small feathered game at close range.
    8. Nostalgia, nostalgia, nostalgia.

    Here is some interesting reading about the usefulness of the 410 cartridge (for fox hunting of all things): http://www.fourten.org.uk/TheTwoFacesOfThe410.pdf

    Here is a review of the Chiappa double badger: http://rockymountainbushcraft.blogsp...olding-22.html





    Not a combination - but a folding 410...

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Bushcraft gun - what would/do you choose/use?

    Just to add:

    The .22 barrel is surprisingly accurate on my M24 (within the limitations of open sights). I put it down to the rigidity imparted by the shotgun barrel even though the 22 barrel is the thinnest I have ever seen.

    If you look at the Classic Arms advert in the latest Magnum magazine, you will see that they currently have several combination guns in stock. None of them are M24's though.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Bushcraft gun - what would/do you choose/use?

    First 2 rifles that came to mind when I read this thread was a Ruger 10/22 but IMO better still the Ruger Mini 14 with folding stock, a small scope and short suppressor (maybe even chop the barrel a little shorter).

    Should be able to carry more ammo than .410 and it's more flexable than a .22lr in the sense that you can take down bigger animals.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Bushcraft gun - what would/do you choose/use?

    I must say another option for those who will anyways carry a pistol like a Glock is the Kel-Tec Sub-2000 Gen2.

    As a hunting rifle it will give much better terminal performance than a 22, as a defensive rifle close range again much better than the 22.
    Magazines from your Glock is interchangeable, the only rounds you need to carry is 9mm, and you can carry a lot.
    It folds really compact in a second.

    I personally would not mind this as a survival/bushcraft combo, a G19 and the Sub-2000, makes a lot of sense to me.

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