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20-10-2016, 10:39 #1
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- Oct 2016
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- Cape Town
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- 2
Newbie - seeking info on SAPS rubber bullets / baton rounds
Greetings all,
Hope you don’t mind taking questions from a newbie. I popped onto this forum as someone trying to get info on an issue that people on this forum may have more knowledge of than the average joe -- police-issue rubber rounds.
Let me explain: I’m a policy researcher by day, but as a kind of a hobby I provide occasional advisories and fact-checking for journalists/media organisations — especially in areas where the media/public are getting facts wrong or misunderstanding an issue.
Right now (given the very messy political developments of the day) one issue that's coming up a lotconsistently is public confusion/misunderstanding about the use of ‘rubber bullets’. Especially with the hectic protests we've seen on campus the last few weeks.
For example, we’ve seen repeated instances where people have reported use of ‘live ammunition’ by SAPS, and journalists and bystanders do not seem to have the tools they need to determine whether or not these are accurate. Unfortunately, SAPS communication has also been slower than it could have been to address these. I’m hoping there are people on this forum who can help me get to the bottom of it.
1. My understanding is that SAPS uses double-ball baton rounds - basically two rubber balls stacked on top of each other in a 12-gauge cartridge. Assume that’s correct?
2. Are there different types of rounds used - and how does one tell the difference, and are they employed in different circumstances? The shells appear to be a range of different colours (grey/off-white, blue, etc.) Do these colours signify different rounds?
3. Various journalists have posted pics of the actual rubber rounds - I’ve seen green, black and white rounds. Some appear to be hard plastic and some rubber. (Note: some of these may be from private security using 'paintball' guns.) Do these colours signify anything (e.g. hardness/density of the round)?
4. I’ve seen numerous reports over the year that SAPS members are trained to fire the rounds to ricochet off the ground, to reduce the impact, but on some online (international) advisories for rubber rounds have advised the exact opposite. Can anyone suggest what’s closer to the truth?
5. Again, it’s often been reported that there are prescribed guidelines for how these rounds should be employed, especially regarding a minimum safe distance. Can anyone advise on what the guidelines state, and where one would find them (or what they’re called)?
6. Also… given there are sometimes false reports that ‘live ammunition’ has been used — does anyone know if SAPS would equip members with live shotgun ammo under any circumstances (i.e. for other policing functions) — and if so what ammo would that be?
7. One LEO member of this forum who was a reservist has mentioned that SAPS used to be equipped with birdshot - does anyone know at what point was that phased out?
I hope you don’t mind me asking some dumb questions. I would really appreciate any help you can give. Full disclosure: I *am* hoping to use this info for a short written advisory which would go to some journalists. I would not attribute the information to any person or source, but thought you should know.
Thanks and have a great day,
Tim
p.s. Thanks to Skaaphaas and others for directing me to this thread
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20-10-2016, 11:11 #2
Re: Newbie - seeking info on SAPS rubber bullets / baton rounds
Which organisation do you do work for?
Recent studies show that 1 out of every 3 liberals are just as dumb as the other 2
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20-10-2016, 11:36 #3
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- Jul 2011
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- Oudtshoorn/George
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- 43
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- 958
Re: Newbie - seeking info on SAPS rubber bullets / baton rounds
He did send me a PM but I have not replied. I can give him all the answers he requires but I would rather not and will appeal to the OP to follow the protocol and contact the SAPS Directly for this request as I am in no official position to disclose this info to a member of the public or any other person for matter of fact.
To many cops have been nailed and stabbed in the back for revealing info without following protocol. Rather follow procedures and applying for the info from SAPS head office.
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20-10-2016, 11:41 #4
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- Jun 2010
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- Cape Town
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- 47
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- 9,403
Re: Newbie - seeking info on SAPS rubber bullets / baton rounds
Good call.
Although I am also curious about some of that.
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20-10-2016, 11:48 #5
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- Oct 2011
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- JHB
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- 3,749
Re: Newbie - seeking info on SAPS rubber bullets / baton rounds
OP - Do you work for GFSA or any organization that has links/ties with GFSA?
These questions should be answered by SAPS
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20-10-2016, 12:56 #6
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
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- 538
Re: Newbie - seeking info on SAPS rubber bullets / baton rounds
/sniffs air. Guys walk carefully around this OP could be a journalist. Who love twisting facts.
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20-10-2016, 13:03 #7
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- Dec 2014
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- 65
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- 167
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20-10-2016, 13:23 #8
- Join Date
- Oct 2016
- Location
- Cape Town
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- 2
Re: Newbie - seeking info on SAPS rubber bullets / baton rounds
Grettings everyone,
I didn't mean to cause any controversy. Not sure what's GFSA, but as stated I'm not a journalist. In my personal capacity have helped to correct unfactual reporting via social media advisories, write-ins, etc. I didn't have any intention of twisting facts or nailing anyone.
I can appreciate SAPS guys have probably learned the hard way to keep your head down. Unfortunately SAPS head office doesn't like to provide this info. I would argue this basic info would improve understanding of police work and build trust at a time when there is too much misunderstanding and not enough trust.
Basically... Sorry!
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20-10-2016, 13:39 #9
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- Oct 2011
- Location
- Jnb
- Age
- 50
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- 1,178
Re: Newbie - seeking info on SAPS rubber bullets / baton rounds
GFSA - Gun Free South Africa. Not very popular here on the forum as they are often caught misrepresenting facts, twisting half truths etc. re: lawful and responsible firearm ownership.
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20-10-2016, 13:52 #10
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
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- 7,270
Re: Newbie - seeking info on SAPS rubber bullets / baton rounds
So if SAPS head office does not give out this information. Then anyone giving you answers on your question, that is not in the SAPS higher ranks who deal with these scenario's. Will only be giving you speculation and mis information answers. As surely they also would not have been able to obtain the answer from the SAPS.
How can you possibly not know what GFSA is? I most of the times read people pretty well. As I did study human behavior as well when I did my studies.
And in most cases when a person avoids a question quickly or says they dont know a certain thing. In the way you did when asked about GFSA. And you asked what it is. And the fact you mentioned your a policy researcher who gives out advice. And you dont know what or who is GFSA. This to me lets some red lights go on.
As I believe you know exactly who GFSA is. Might be affiliated. Therefor you took the route of saying you dont know them.
As you should know them being a policy researcher and occasional advisory and fact checker for journalist.
Sorry but ive got red lights going off around you and your intentions regarding your questions.
And I advice people not to go into discussion with you at all.
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