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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Newbie - seeking info on SAPS rubber bullets / baton rounds

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaaphaas View Post
    I directed him from the intro subforum to this one.
    My apologies Skaap.

    There I went and assumed things. Slippery slope and all


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  2. #22
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    Default Re: Newbie - seeking info on SAPS rubber bullets / baton rounds

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayback View Post
    Anyone who has ever read anything in the papers with regards to firearms has come across the term GFSA. Heck recently there have been GFSA comments on disarming the Police. If the OP does what he does, then he'd have to have come across the group. IF he hasn't, what is his basis for "fact checking".
    You give GFSA far too much credit. Before I bought a firearm I had never heard of them.

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  3. #23
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    Default Re: Newbie - seeking info on SAPS rubber bullets / baton rounds

    Quote Originally Posted by atunguyd View Post
    You give GFSA far too much credit. Before I bought a firearm I had never heard of them.

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    The man's got a point!

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Newbie - seeking info on SAPS rubber bullets / baton rounds

    We in the firearm fraternity who are educated enough know about GFSA.
    Others are like: Huh?

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Newbie - seeking info on SAPS rubber bullets / baton rounds

    Ok. If you say so.

  6. #26
    Moderator camouflage762's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newbie - seeking info on SAPS rubber bullets / baton rounds

    Crickets.....
    Recent studies show that 1 out of every 3 liberals are just as dumb as the other 2

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by researchze View Post
    Greetings all,

    Hope you don’t mind taking questions from a newbie. I popped onto this forum as someone trying to get info on an issue that people on this forum may have more knowledge of than the average joe -- police-issue rubber rounds.

    Let me explain: I’m a policy researcher by day, but as a kind of a hobby I provide occasional advisories and fact-checking for journalists/media organisations — especially in areas where the media/public are getting facts wrong or misunderstanding an issue.

    Right now (given the very messy political developments of the day) one issue that's coming up a lotconsistently is public confusion/misunderstanding about the use of ‘rubber bullets’. Especially with the hectic protests we've seen on campus the last few weeks.

    For example, we’ve seen repeated instances where people have reported use of ‘live ammunition’ by SAPS, and journalists and bystanders do not seem to have the tools they need to determine whether or not these are accurate. Unfortunately, SAPS communication has also been slower than it could have been to address these. I’m hoping there are people on this forum who can help me get to the bottom of it.

    1. My understanding is that SAPS uses double-ball baton rounds - basically two rubber balls stacked on top of each other in a 12-gauge cartridge. Assume that’s correct?
    2. Are there different types of rounds used - and how does one tell the difference, and are they employed in different circumstances? The shells appear to be a range of different colours (grey/off-white, blue, etc.) Do these colours signify different rounds?
    3. Various journalists have posted pics of the actual rubber rounds - I’ve seen green, black and white rounds. Some appear to be hard plastic and some rubber. (Note: some of these may be from private security using 'paintball' guns.) Do these colours signify anything (e.g. hardness/density of the round)?
    4. I’ve seen numerous reports over the year that SAPS members are trained to fire the rounds to ricochet off the ground, to reduce the impact, but on some online (international) advisories for rubber rounds have advised the exact opposite. Can anyone suggest what’s closer to the truth?
    5. Again, it’s often been reported that there are prescribed guidelines for how these rounds should be employed, especially regarding a minimum safe distance. Can anyone advise on what the guidelines state, and where one would find them (or what they’re called)?
    6. Also… given there are sometimes false reports that ‘live ammunition’ has been used — does anyone know if SAPS would equip members with live shotgun ammo under any circumstances (i.e. for other policing functions) — and if so what ammo would that be?
    7. One LEO member of this forum who was a reservist has mentioned that SAPS used to be equipped with birdshot - does anyone know at what point was that phased out?

    I hope you don’t mind me asking some dumb questions. I would really appreciate any help you can give. Full disclosure: I *am* hoping to use this info for a short written advisory which would go to some journalists. I would not attribute the information to any person or source, but thought you should know.

    Thanks and have a great day,
    Tim
    p.s. Thanks to Skaaphaas and others for directing me to this thread
    I understand your concern about The different coloring on the shot shells and what they mean. I myself have done some intensive market reasearch and have come up with the following:

    The transparent shells are standard batton. You can see the rubber balls in them. Easy.

    The green shells are D-cell replaced. The batton has been removed and replaced with d-cell batteries. This is old apratheid, internal stability unit stock. It should have been destroyed during Ops Mouflon

    The red shells are AAA. This stands for Army And Airforce and consists of 7x R4 expanding bullets in the case. It should not be used by the police and is against the Hauge Convention

    The blue shells are also batton but coated with depleted uranium. These were made by Project Coast. The were used to kill via the means of cancer. The blue is actually lead paint - intended to protect the shooter from the effects of the radiation. This is one of uncle Wouters sneaky ones

    The different colors have absolutely NOTHING to do with the color of the plastic available at the time of manufacture.

    Hope this helps.

  8. #28
    Moderator camouflage762's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newbie - seeking info on SAPS rubber bullets / baton rounds

    Thanks for the clarification Cordite.

    Do the colour of the rubber balls themselves indicate hardness or potential lethality?
    Recent studies show that 1 out of every 3 liberals are just as dumb as the other 2

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by camouflage762 View Post
    Thanks for the clarification Cordite.

    Do the colour of the rubber balls themselves hardness or indicate lethality?
    Apparently they do:
    Black is lethal. (Comes out a blue shot shell)
    Pink is non lethal.
    Grey can go either way.
    Don’t take life too seriously, no one gets out alive.

  10. #30
    Moderator camouflage762's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newbie - seeking info on SAPS rubber bullets / baton rounds

    Would you be able to do a ballistic trace back to the shotgun that fired the rubber rounds from the grooves in the barrel?
    Recent studies show that 1 out of every 3 liberals are just as dumb as the other 2

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