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  1. #11

    Default Re: Genuine R4 rifles

    Nope.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit: occidentis telum est.

    Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD)

  2. #12

    Default Re: Genuine R4 rifles

    Never seen a genuine R4 out there. In respect of some of what I have seen latter LM5's seem to have been modified by shortening the finger on the safety shaft that allows for full auto. The second sear on the hammer was ground off. All else remained the same but I stand to be corrected on that and definitely there were variations over time. Definitely the auto sear on several I have seen remained in and not ground but given the aforementioned two mods this was irrelevant as it is well and truly semi auto. As AR mentioned there were other methods those are just the few I have seen and working from a sketchy memory. Though seen the A notch on the receiver welded out (if this is what is meant) and I have to wonder if it came out of denel that way as I have not seen an original like that.Years ago I did get to see a number of Israeli receivered LM6's and they had the normal selector positions on the receiver as well as the auto sear. Thanks for adding to the knowledge WZ and all others.

  3. #13

    Default Re: Genuine R4 rifles

    As far as I know, the auto sear was commonly left in. There seems - from what I can gather - to have been slam fire issues with some guns from which they had been removed.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit: occidentis telum est.

    Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD)

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Genuine R4 rifles

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderin' Zero View Post
    A-R, nope. But it does have something to do with running full auto, which is why you don't see it on the LM.
    As I said, my own LM6 has it.

    Would LEW really make 2 different gas tubes, 1 for the R and another for the LM? All other dinensions would be identical and the parts would be interchangable.

    I have seen older (Galil-made) R4 rifles, without the ring, run full auto untill the handguard melted off. They ran just the same as the local R4.

    Slam-fires were always a problem. The elastomer sleeve around the firing pin was supposed to solve that, nothing to do with the auto sear getting ground on the LM's.

    If you manage to disable the disconnector on a ground down LM version, the hammer would just slowly follow the bolt carrier forward, hitting the firing pin with too little speed to ignite the primer.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Genuine R4 rifles

    Quote Originally Posted by A-R View Post
    My own LM6 was originally built with auto sear and "A" selector notch. Then the auto sear and hammer were ground down to de-activate the function. My guess is it was a surplus R6, so got "converted" to an LM6.
    Where were R6s used or issued?
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  6. #16

    Default Re: Genuine R4 rifles

    Craigs question about used or issued got me thinking. Years ago I was looking for an LM6 and was shown one at a gun shop. I turned it down at the time because it had LM 6 stamped on the side of the receiver pretty much in the usual place but appearing hand stamped but not the usual LM cast or machined typed markings that we know. A friend who had worked at denel told me that no ways denel would have done that. This and the flash hider had a whitish grey appearance near the vents made me turn the rifle down. What has just suddenly dawned on me is the very strong likelihood that the whitish grey flash hider was due to full auto fire at some stage and that the rifle very likely left the factory in full auto form and was later converted hence the stamped lm6.

  7. #17

    Default Re: Genuine R4 rifles

    Quote Originally Posted by A-R View Post
    As I said, my own LM6 has it.
    Now that's interesting. Please post a few pics of your LM6 sometime if you have a minute.

    Quote Originally Posted by A-R View Post
    Would LEW really make 2 different gas tubes, 1 for the R and another for the LM? All other dimensions would be identical and the parts would be interchangeable.
    Apparently so.

    Quote Originally Posted by A-R View Post
    Slam-fires were always a problem. The elastomer sleeve around the firing pin was supposed to solve that, nothing to do with the auto sear getting ground on the LM's.
    I'm given to understand that these are two different issues. Initially the R series had a round and relatively sharp faced floating firing pin. This sometimes resulted in slam fires. Then the elastomer bush was introduced. The maintenance schedule required periodic replacement of this (every five years if I am not mistaken) Subsequent to the elastomer bush setup story, the firing pin was later redesigned on the R series to make the face more square and it was returned to a floating design (sprung firing pins apparently don't work too well on the full auto setup). Its not clear to me if the shape of the aperture in the bolt also changed. I am also given to understand that somewhere along the line it it was discovered that removing the auto sear on an LM could result in slam fires, which is why many LM's have auto sears. As you know many of them also have sprung firing pins - something you will not find on an R series. I have also not yet seen or heard of a square face firing pin on an LM but then I haven't been looking very hard or asking either.

    In the R series, a gun that ends A1 has the elastomer bush setup, A2 the redesigned firing pin.

    Quote Originally Posted by A-R View Post
    If you manage to disable the disconnector on a ground down LM version, the hammer would just slowly follow the bolt carrier forward, hitting the firing pin with too little speed to ignite the primer.
    That's what I would have thought too but as I say, it seems not.
    Last edited by Wanderin' Zero; 23-10-2016 at 05:35.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit: occidentis telum est.

    Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD)

  8. #18

    Default Re: Genuine R4 rifles

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig View Post
    Where were R6s used or issued?
    I am not sure but I can find out.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit: occidentis telum est.

    Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD)

  9. #19

    Default Re: Genuine R4 rifles

    Quote Originally Posted by FNBROWNING View Post
    Craigs question about used or issued got me thinking. Years ago I was looking for an LM6 and was shown one at a gun shop. I turned it down at the time because it had LM 6 stamped on the side of the receiver pretty much in the usual place but appearing hand stamped but not the usual LM cast or machined typed markings that we know. A friend who had worked at denel told me that no ways denel would have done that. This and the flash hider had a whitish grey appearance near the vents made me turn the rifle down. What has just suddenly dawned on me is the very strong likelihood that the whitish grey flash hider was due to full auto fire at some stage and that the rifle very likely left the factory in full auto form and was later converted hence the stamped lm6.
    Yup! You should have grabbed it!
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit: occidentis telum est.

    Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD)

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Genuine R4 rifles

    I know of a genuine R4 in the brown mill colour in civilian hands. It is now owned by a collector and it is still capable of full auto.
    It used to belong to a gunsmith that I know so I have actually seen and handled it in person.
    The story that I heard goes that he was given his issued R4 when he finished his millitary service with the parabats(and from what I can gathered, some other specialized units but that is unconfirmed).

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