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  1. #11

    Default Re: Collectors, the 50 Shades of Grey

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig View Post
    I have a horrible feeling I'm not going to like this long story. I'm sure this suits some, which is maybe what's really important.
    If you don't know the story, how can you be sure?
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit: occidentis telum est.

    Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD)

  2. #12

    Default Re: Collectors, the 50 Shades of Grey

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie Barnard View Post
    We have a group of Collectors who do an annual re-enactment hunt - "The Weltevreden Blackpowder hunt. " Gunsiters would be familiar with this thread.
    What is strange though, is that of our group of twelve enthusiasts, only two are (Officially) collectors - belonging to collectors associations.
    They are all collectors of not only firearms, but also of other items connected to their areas of interest. They have a wealth of knowledge of firearms and history, and all of us gain a lot of knowledge about a range of topics on these hunts.

    Where history sometimes seems to be only the story of wars, it has been said that wars are the exclamation marks of history. Our re-enactment is actually the unscripted re-enactment of peacetime between the wars, during a certain time-period.

    Why is it that the other ten hunters in our group do not belong to collectors associations? I think the reason could be that the associations have become too elitist. They seem to discourage everybody who would not fit into the rigorous definition of what a collector should be. Somehow I do not see my ten hunting friends rushing to join a collector's association. Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate what the guys in charge are doing for us under very difficult circumstances, but we don't seem to attract many members.

    The opposite has happened to the hunting associations - of the groups of hunters I join annually 95 to 100% are members of hunting associations.

    I'm wondering: Have we signed our own death warrant by being too elitist?
    There are many considerations, including that the legal framework for collectors is wildly different to the rest.

    I don't think that its a matter of elitism but rather a matter of commitment. In *some* quarters it requires very little commitment to become a dedicated sports shooter or hunter. Collectors ask for a bit more commitment, that's all. The fact that many are not willing to make that commitment is quite telling. Just like most won't commit to joining a gun rights organisation on a paying basis (only a tiny fraction of South African gun owners are paying members of either SAGA or GOSA). The only reason they are members of their regulatory associations is, in most instances, because they don't have a choice.

    But the apparently draconian proposed rewrite of the FCA (which will likely take some years) may in due course render all of this moot anyeay. We can talk about death warrants after that *if* collectors survive it.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit: occidentis telum est.

    Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD)

  3. #13
    Craig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Collectors, the 50 Shades of Grey

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderin' Zero View Post
    If you don't know the story, how can you be sure?
    Because the current act and policies make it easier for me to own a single full auto, than it does for me to own an entire collection of colt's and then try add a semi auto. Guess I wasn't involved in drafting these nor do I own a full auto, so what's it matter anyway.

    Hopefully it becomes more inclusive than exclusive, than it has been.
    "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."
    -Winston Churchill

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  4. #14

    Default Re: Collectors, the 50 Shades of Grey

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig View Post
    Because the current act and policies make it easier for me to own a single full auto, than it does for me to own an entire collection of colt's and then try add a semi auto.
    Hm. Interesting perspective. Not sure if I agree but I think it depends upon the angle from which you look at things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig View Post
    Hopefully it becomes more inclusive than exclusive, than it has been.
    I do not see barriers to entry as such changing significantly in the near future. But perhaps things can be made less intimidating and/or opaque. One of the key problems is that people do not understand how the system works and how to get into it and make it work for them. It is a significant problem.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit: occidentis telum est.

    Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD)

  5. #15
    Craig's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderin' Zero View Post
    I do not see barriers to entry as such changing significantly in the near future. But perhaps things can be made less intimidating and/or opaque. One of the key problems is that people do not understand how the system works and how to get into it and make it work for them. It is a significant problem.
    I think it'll be fine once the 'system' starts cloning collectors. Do as I do and collect what I collect and you'll be fine. I think unfortunately many see how the system works and realise that they have largely been written out of it already, because that works for those heavily invested in it.
    "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."
    -Winston Churchill

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  6. #16

    Default Re: Collectors, the 50 Shades of Grey

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig View Post
    I think it'll be fine once the 'system' starts cloning collectors. Do as I do and collect what I collect and you'll be fine. I think unfortunately many see how the system works and realise that they have largely been written out of it already, because that works for those heavily invested in it.
    The comment is a bit generic for me to really be able to make anything of it. Could you please be more specific – if necessary, provide examples without mentioning names? The difficulty is that we often get these "generic grumbles" but it is hard to do something about them without a proper understanding of what the issue actually is. Sometimes also, we are constrained by the limitations of the law (including regulation 15), which we discover people often have little – or sometimes absolutely no – knowledge of. For example, many people want to come in the door and immediately start collecting modern current production semiautomatics. But if you look at the legal and regulatory environment, that is practically impossible.


    The differentiators between collectors on the one hand and sports shooters and hunters on the other hand are partly a function of the legal framework; admittedly also, at least to some extent, partly a function of deliberate choice.


    Another thing that very few people are aware of is that collectors are the only group which are required, by operation of law, to have a national association and in respect of which every collector's association is obliged, as a matter of law, to be a member. That also has an influence on matters.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit: occidentis telum est.

    Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD)

  7. #17
    Craig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Collectors, the 50 Shades of Grey

    Regulation 15 is partly what I'm concerned about and what led to it. It's is accommodating to some, not all.

    It was better for most under the bonefide system, where one was subject to a specific guidelines and not regulations written and enforced by ones peers.

    I've been in this a long time, long enough to see how each tweak becomes more accommodating for some and less for others.

    I don't need to name any names, I'm talking as a collective group and I don't have any knowledge of who owns what, but my semi / full auto example still stands.
    "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."
    -Winston Churchill

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  8. #18

    Default Re: Collectors, the 50 Shades of Grey

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig View Post
    Regulation 15 is partly what I'm concerned about and what led to it.
    What is your understanding of what led to it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig View Post
    It's is accommodating to some, not all.
    I do not quite understand what you are getting at here…

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig View Post
    but my semi / full auto example still stands.
    Which to be honest, I also do not really understand either.

    You seem to be looking at things from a paradigm which I am having difficulty grasping.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit: occidentis telum est.

    Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD)

  9. #19

    Default Re: Collectors, the 50 Shades of Grey

    You can't mention opening a can of worms, and then press for people to provide you with the facts that will not only open that can....but spill the contents over the entire floor.
    Do you really want examples and a debate on how things work in reality vs ideally?
    This is probably not the place for it.

  10. #20

    Default Re: Collectors, the 50 Shades of Grey

    Oh, I can, although perhaps I shouldn't. :-)

    Yes, I want to understand what Craig is seeing. I'm genuinely not getting what he's trying to tell me. If I don't understand it I can't answer it or try to influence matters.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit: occidentis telum est.

    Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD)

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