SAPS 539 and SD

**wthang** · 12-05-2010, 14:03

Couple of questions:

1. If I have a temporary storage permit, can that weapon have any ammunition with it? Is that a separate permit?

2. Could I lawfully use a fire arm in a self defence situation if it is in my safe under a SAPS539?

Surely the 539 allows me access inside the safe and if that does not I have a licensed rifle locked away allowing me the access.?

DS · 12-05-2010, 14:14

NO

read the Regs.

539 is a permit to STORE

Reg 86 (4) :

(e) A firearm stored in terms of this regulation may not be used by the person who provides the storage or any other person while it is stored in terms of this regulation.
(f) Only the holder of the licence applying to the firearm may remove the firearm from the safe or strongroom where it is stored.

**Wismit** · 12-05-2010, 14:17

1. SAP 539 is only to store firearm. Not amo.

2. Yes you can, but where do you get amo? You will have to hit the bad guy over
the head.

3. The SAP 539 only allow you to store a firearm. You are not allowed to
use it.

DS · 12-05-2010, 15:18

Originally Posted by Wismit

2. Yes you can, but where do you get amo? You will have to hit the bad guy over
the head.

I do not agree - read Reg 86 (4) (e) and (f) - it is not going to be legal because the Reg prohibit the use and the handling of it.

If you want to use it apply for a Section 21 Authority/Permit.

**Wismit** · 12-05-2010, 19:42

So what you are saying is:

You have a firearm in your safe which you store ito a SAPS 539. Now some BG come into your house with an AK47 and you cannot use the firearm?

That is the same as saying my wife cannot take my gun from the safe to protect my family when attacked.

I can gaurantee you that you will not be charged for anything.
(Well with our "highly educated" prosecutors in our courts one never knows)

You can kill a BG in selfdefence, why not use a firearm legally in your possesion.

We are talking here of acting in private defence, not normal use wich Reg 86 (4) (e) and (f) refers to.

DS · 12-05-2010, 22:02

Originally Posted by Wismit

So what you are saying is:

You have a firearm in your safe which you store ito a SAPS 539. Now some BG come into your house with an AK47 and you cannot use the firearm?

That is the same as saying my wife cannot take my gun from the safe to protect my family when attacked.

I can gaurantee you that you will not be charged for anything.
(Well with our "highly educated" prosecutors in our courts one never knows)

You can kill a BG in selfdefence, why not use a firearm legally in your possesion.

We are talking here of acting in private defence, not normal use wich Reg 86 (4) (e) and (f) refers to.

He asked:

"2. Could I lawfully use a fire arm in a self defence situation if it is in my safe under a SAPS539?"

I say no you cannot!

You "can" use it but you "may" not!

You cannot use it "lawfully"

You are not allowed to use it nor are you allowed to remove it from the safe. If use it or take out of the safe you WILL be in contravention of the FCA.

"why not use a firearm legally in your possesion" - you are not legally in possession of the firearm you are storing it under strict conditions.

If you have a Section 21 Authority/permit you are in possession and you can use.

If you want to give someone a reason to get you declared unfit to possess it's your choice.

**Corné** · 13-05-2010, 08:13

I agree with Khumba but do see it slightly differently.

First off all...no you may not use it and it is suppose to remain in the safe and not handled by you. I am not 100% sure about the issue regarding ammunition but it would seem that you would not be able to store ammunition with it. However this does not make sense to me as I see the 539 as an alternative avenue to store a firearm in a safe manner.

As an example: I live in "Put-Sonder-Water" and need to travel by plane to outside the borders of our country. I drive to my buddy in Johannesburg with my SD firearm. When arriving at him, we go to the local Cop Shop and get the 539 paperwork done to store my firearm in the safe of my buddy...no what about my ammo? Surely I should be able to store that with the said firearm? The way I see it (and I may be wrong) is that you should be able store ammo with the firearm. As I say...not 100% sure about the ammo issue.

No a few days later my buddy experience a attack / invasion at his house. He uses his own legal firearm but during this it develops a total malfunction and it is not usable anymore. My buddy is able to get to the safe and the only other firearm available is mine. Now we either stored ammo with it (if this is legal) or we have both the same type of firearm and thus his mags is totally usable in my firearm and he uses my firearm to continue his Self Defence Action with my firearm. It is legally in his safe. Surely from this scenario he may be contravening the FCA but in terms of "Noodweer" he should be safe?

Yes the opposite to the above would be where you decide to utilise that stored firearm in a SD role in that you make the decission to primarily go for that firearm in a SD situation....that would be wrong and I would say that you would face a big dilema.

So on the face value of the question my answer is NO, you may not but IMO that does not indicate that there would not be defendable situations whereby you could use it...you may bot but IMO there are situations that would justify it BUT BE VERY CAREFULL.

Just a note...I AM NOT A LEGAL EAGLE AND THIS IS MY INTERPRETATION OF THE MATTER AND I MAY BE TOTALLY OFF TRACK!!!!!!

**wthang** · 13-05-2010, 08:59

Corne,

Valid points and I am with you on your way of thinking.

Does anybody have a 100% answer on the ammo being stored with the gun?
If you read the section 21 it also relates to the handling of ammunition...

Within the FCA, is there consideration to the "reasonable man" term?
I work in health and safety and the regulations we have to adhere to always speak about what the "reasonable man" would do.

**Snaphaan** · 13-05-2010, 11:19

Originally Posted by Corné

No a few days later my buddy experience a attack / invasion at his house. He uses his own legal firearm but during this it develops a total malfunction and it is not usable anymore. My buddy is able to get to the safe and the only other firearm available is mine. Now we either stored ammo with it (if this is legal) or we have both the same type of firearm and thus his mags is totally usable in my firearm and he uses my firearm to continue his Self Defence Action with my firearm. It is legally in his safe. Surely from this scenario he may be contravening the FCA but in terms of "Noodweer" he should be safe?

I agree with Corne.

Your defence to contravention of the provisions of the FCA would be Necessity, (aka Noodtoestand, to be distinguished from Noodweer).

In other words, you should be excused for contravening the provisions of the FCA through the doctrine of Necessity (Noodtoestand), but you would be using the firearm in self defence (Noodweer).