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  1. #51
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    Default Re: Frontier ammo 223

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevendr View Post
    My first +/- 500 55gr Frontier (24gr S321) rounds through Stag 10" : No Issues at 5m, 10m, 25m, 50m and 100m. Groups decently for mass production bullets, avg 2620fps through chrony with Saimaa Still silencer.

    Also tested Hornady V-Max 55gr. Zero Problems, excellent accuracy, same load, avg 2670fps.

    Frontier bullets bought from GS member so I have no details on batch.

    Sorry, forgot to mention, mine is a 1:7" twist.

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoopSoosStroop View Post
    Twist and muzzle velocity. If you shoot these either very fast or through a fast twist rate they will have plating separation. In a traditional 1 in 12" you should not have any issues, even at closer to max loads. In 1 in 7" the wheels will come off very soon. IMHO the frontier 55 gr CMJ is an excellent bullet at the price, and even pretty accurate in the right gun. In my 1 in 12" Mini I obtained accuracy approaching FMJ (about 3 MOA at 100 m).
    So in a bolt action rifle with a twist rate of 1:12 these would not seperate ?

  3. #53
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by killzone View Post
    So in a bolt action rifle with a twist rate of 1:12 these would not seperate ?
    In long barrels and velocities above 2800 fps I would not count on it.

  4. #54

    Default Re: Frontier ammo 223

    Thanks

  5. #55
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    Default Re: Frontier ammo 223

    Quote Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
    The technique is called barrel plating, as mentioned above. This is very commonly used for large batches of small parts like bolts, nuts, washers, ball bearings.
    Bullets are placed in a perforated barrel which is suspended in a tank of plating electrolyte (consists of copper salts, pH buffers, conductivity modifiers, levellers, brighteners
    and other chemicals) This barrel is mechanically driven by a motor to allow bullets to tumble over each other. The electrical connection (cathode) is in the form of a 'dangler'
    which rests under the surface of the pile of bullets in the barrel. At rest, all bullets are connected to this cathode device which also includes some means for electrical connection while barrel is rotated. The anode is external to the barrel, and consists mainly of pure copper, but sometimes it is a copper-phosphorus alloy, or other alloy. The barrel is inclined to allow the bullets to tumble over each other. Every bullet gets roughly even exposure to current from the anode. This is the essential of even plating. If you google barrel plating you will get a decent picture of what I am trying to describe here. CMJ bullet plating is a very long process because of the thickness of the jacket required.
    Thanks for the detailed explanation. With the complexity, I would have thought that the slightly less complicated process of chemical plating would be preferred.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul View Post
    Why do you suppose they are not rated for top accuracy ;-{>}
    Indeed. I find them to be good for 3 - 4 MOA from most rifles, self-loading or bolt-action.

  6. #56
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    Default Re: Frontier ammo 223

    2 of 5 Frontier rounds.jpg5 rounds Hornady.jpg
    I can do with some advice.
    I’ve bought 599 Frontier 55g .223 bullets.
    I reloaded a 100 rounds and went to the firing range, most of them go sideways through the target (keyholes) and in general I can’t hit an A4 target with them at 25m. Seriously.

    Initially I thought there was something wrong with my reloading, then Somebody told me that the Frontier points are useless so I bought Hornady V-Max.

    I then went through great care loading in one sitting 5 x Hornadys and 5 x Frontiers weighing each round’s load to make sure I’m within 0,1grain of accuracy.
    I also then loaded 10 Hornadys with my progressive reloader as per normal to see what happens.

    Because I knew from previous experience the Frontiers can’t hit a target at 100m or even 50m, I set up my target at 25m to make sure I can get the rounds at least on the target.

    I fired my 5 hand loaded Hornadys on the centre black sticker, and as you can see a nice grouping and nice round holes

    I then fired my 5 hand loaded Frontiers on the left black sticker, as you can see only two of the rounds are even on the target and both of them went sideways through the target.

    I then fired the remaining 4 Hornadys (I used the rest earlier on to make sure my scope is in) also on the left black sticker (since the Frontiers weren’t close by in any case) that I have reloaded with my progressive reloader and as you can see from the attached even they are very well grouped.

    So what goes wrong with the Frontiers ??? I have a 1:9 twist 20" barrel. I loaded all the above rounds at 23.4grain Somchem S321

  7. #57
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    Default Re: Frontier ammo 223

    Short explanation by A--R

    I have shot a few thousand of the Frontier 55gn CMJ's through my rifle with 1:12" twist barrel. No fouling or bullet integrity issues. I did however experience accuracy issues at the higher pressure loads, being above 25gn S321. At 24 and 25gn no issues. I would expect the faster rotational speeds caused by faster twist rates to put more strain on the bullet integrity. The relatively thin copper plated jacket is not nearly as thick and strong as a conventional cup-type jacket. Add to that relatively sharp rifling edges, and it can easily rupture the jacket and spray lead all over the show.

    The copper jackets are chemically plated onto the lead cores, so they are relatively brittle. Any crimp or rifling engraving will weaken them. The later production batches seem to have thicker jackets and resist damage slightly better than the older batches.

    It may be worthwhile to experiment with reduced powder charges (and velocities) to see if the issues subside.

    If the rifling in your barrel has particularly sharp edges, this may also contribute to the problem. No fix for that except some normal barrel wear. I would not try to polish the barrel.

    Several local bullet makers have lathe-turned copper or brass bullets available specifically for use in fast-twist rifles. Have a look at the offerings by firms like Frontier, KZN Ammunition and a few others.

    Apparently Frontier has started making a 62gn flat-nosed CMJ bullet. This should have a longer bearing surface, so it should be more suitable to faster twist barrels. I will certainly test them in my rifle, when they become available in my neck of the woods.

    If normal copper solvents don't clean up a barrel, even after soaking for extended periods, then some more agressive measures may be called for. Remember that the copper solvents are supposed to chemically dissolve the copper, so they need enough time to work. You can also try a "soft" abrasive like JB Bore paste. I also like to use "Mr Muscle" (formerly Brillo). Works just as well and is available at your local supermarket. It is a long and tedious process, as you may need to pass a tight-fitting patch with "abrasive" through the bore a few hundred times. Be carefull not to damage the barrel by rubbing the cleaning rod against the rifling. I find that in really stubborn cases, alternating chemical and abrasive compounds to give the best results. (Don't mix them!) If these don't remove the fouling, then it probably is not fouling to start with.

  8. #58
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    Default Re: Frontier ammo 223

    Explain your reloading process step by step ,as well as your load data.
    Even the hornady rounds are coming apart, you are either too fast, too much crimp or something is damaging the jackets.

  9. #59
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    Default Re: Frontier ammo 223

    Hmmm, from reading up a lot this morning it would seem I must decrease my load. I guess I must get a Chrony to check the muzzle velocity... But I was thinking since the S321 recommendation for 55g bullet is 23.3 - 25.9 my 23.4 is clearly at the slower side of things, well I guess I'm wrong. As a side note there is clearly no over pressure on my primers but I guess that does not mean much in this specific conversation either.

    Any case. I used previously fired PMP casings.
    I trim them with a normal hand trimmer to the right length.
    Then de-burr them inside and outside.
    Then chuck them in a solution of Sunlight liquid and Tartaric acid, shake them around for a couple of minutes until they look mostly shiny.
    Bake them in the oven to ~100 deg for ~15 minutes, mostly to get them dry quickly.
    Then in this specific case where I was doing the precise reloading to figure out what's going on, I first just primed all of them in my Lee pro 1000 (yes I know its the cheapest on the market - but no that's not the reason).
    Then I painstakingly hand measured each powder load (with a Lee balance beam scale - hmmm might it be that the scale measures wrong ?)
    Then I seated the bullet with my Lee Pro 1000 again one at a time.
    Which means the bullet isn't crimped at all.

    Now just remember I reloaded the Hornady's and the Frontiers exactly the same.

  10. #60
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    Default Re: Frontier ammo 223

    Quote Originally Posted by PieterJan View Post
    Hmmm, from reading up a lot this morning it would seem I must decrease my load. I guess I must get a Chrony to check the muzzle velocity... But I was thinking since the S321 recommendation for 55g bullet is 23.3 - 25.9 my 23.4 is clearly at the slower side of things, well I guess I'm wrong. As a side note there is clearly no over pressure on my primers but I guess that does not mean much in this specific conversation either.

    Any case. I used previously fired PMP casings.
    I trim them with a normal hand trimmer to the right length.
    Then de-burr them inside and outside.
    Then chuck them in a solution of Sunlight liquid and Tartaric acid, shake them around for a couple of minutes until they look mostly shiny.
    Bake them in the oven to ~100 deg for ~15 minutes, mostly to get them dry quickly.
    Then in this specific case where I was doing the precise reloading to figure out what's going on, I first just primed all of them in my Lee pro 1000 (yes I know its the cheapest on the market - but no that's not the reason).
    Then I painstakingly hand measured each powder load (with a Lee balance beam scale - hmmm might it be that the scale measures wrong ?)
    Then I seated the bullet with my Lee Pro 1000 again one at a time.
    Which means the bullet isn't crimped at all.

    Now just remember I reloaded the Hornady's and the Frontiers exactly the same.
    I can see no reference to you resizing the cases. Am I missing something?

    Oven baking to dry the cases is a risky bussiness. I have on several occasions seen cases getting overheated during this process due to hot spots developing, or them sitting in there a little longer. There are easier and safer methods to dry cases.

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