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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Scope Size. Longer Range

    I have a x40 scope and only use up to 25 magnification.

    I dont really like vortex but the guys are happy with the PST scopes.

    308 is good for 1000m and some more. So you will dial in a lot, and good scopes are more consistent than other in keeping zero.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Scope Size. Longer Range


  3. #13

    Default Re: Scope Size. Longer Range

    Quote Originally Posted by stefanvan View Post
    Good article, although I think he's a bit 'light' on intended use, and it's quite hard for shooters to understand before purchasing.

    The main use of a First Focal Plane scope is that the reticle remains in proportion to the target at all magnifications.
    Pros: Hold offs (wind or elevation) can be measured on the reticle stadia at any magnification.
    Cons: The reticle can get very very small/thin at low magnification, or very very thick/fat at high magnification.

    So why does one want a FFP scope?
    If you are engaging targets at various ranges where you are not sure of the magnification required AND those targets are outside of your Point Blank Range.

    There is a lot in that sentence...

    So the first part:
    1. 'engaging targets' - plural - if you need to transition from one target to another in a short amount of time, you will want to have LESS magnification in order to try and find them. Think about trying to find a point of interest while looking through a straw.
    The problem with a SFP scope is that the reticle is calibrated to be meaningful at a specific magnification (either 10x or more often than not max magnification), therefore; when you have to zoom out to find a target, then you have to zoom in to the correct magnification to then use the reticle stadia. It takes time, and if time is not a problem then is not really a problem.

    2. 'not sure of magnification' - sometimes you need to change magnification off maximum due to mirage, light, or want to keep track of the target if it's moving.
    The same SFP problem applies here, but sometimes you just plain can't shoot at that magnification (ie can't see the targets), and you will need to reduce magnification... at that point the hashes/dots on the SFP scope become next to useless, unless you want to do the math to work out the hash angles at every magnification setting... which eats up time, and brain power.

    3. 'targets are outside of your Point Blank Range' - if targets are inside of 'Point Blank Range' there is no real need for stadia on a reticle, and a standard 'Plex' reticle (no hashes or dots) is probably the way to go, as the bullet hardly moves up/down through it's trajectory enough for the shooter to need to use hashes/dots. Only when you are at the point where wind pushes the bullet enough that you need to account for it significantly will you want to be able to 'hold-off' and use the reticle.
    Yes you can always 'dial' wind for every shot, but again it breaks your setup on the rifle, and eats time.

    The above narrows 'intended use' down SIGNIFICANTLY to tactical style gong competition shooting, military type or long range hunting applications.
    Even then, once you shoot FFP, it's very hard to go back to SFP.


    So... If you're hunting at under Point Blank Range (25 - 275m : 95% of hunters), or shoot static distance targets (F-Class, Square range, etc) then there is no point in buying an expensive tactical FFP scope, and it's better to stay with a SFP scope where you have a regular fixed thickness reticle.

    If you do want to get a FFP scope, I'd suggest actually looking through it before you purchase to find the reticle that you prefer.
    Remember though that most of your shooting will be done at between 8x and 16x (yes, even at 1.5km), and that generally you'll only use your 20+ magnification for zeroing, so check the thickness of the reticle for those magnifications, not max and min.
    Also: Reticles are also like cars... some people like Mercedes over BMW over Audi... they're all comparable cars, it's merely a matter of 'choice'.... your 'choice'.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Scope Size. Longer Range

    Don't think of the side knob as a focus knob. It is for setting parallax. Read up on how to do this properly. And trust me, at any distance but lets pick 100Y.....if you just dial the parallax knob to 100Y....your parallax will not be set correctly and probably neither will the focus. Those marks are just for reference.

    With a FFP scope your reticle changes in size as you zoom in or out, but no matter what magnification you are on the sub tension measurements/values remain the same. The problem is that at low magnification the reticle might be so small it's hard to see and at high magnification the crosshairs might obscure the target.

    With a second focal plane scope the reticle stays the same size throughout the range but the values change depending on the magnification.

    The main drawback for a second focal plane reticle is ranging. You will need to dial the scope to the manufacturers specific magnification to range. With a first focal plane scope you can range at any magnification.

    Whatever you decide on.....and I'll tell you the flavor of the day for some years now with the competition shooters is FFP and mil reticles.....make sure you turrets and reticles match. Mil turrets, mil reticle.

    For most shooting out to say 600Y or so, I find myself using around 12X. Sometimes if it is nice and clear out I will dial higher at 500 or 600 but usually I like about 12X. What is nice about having the extra magnification is that you can crank it up to see hits on paper etc or just if you want to make out detail. If all you have is 16X....you are going to be able to see a little less detail than if you had a 24X optic. Remember too that most scopes under a certain price point get a little less than tack sharp at higher magnification. Perhaps some chromatic aberration....color fringing and plain old "fuzziness" at higher magnification.So a 16X optic might really be at it's optical best around 12-14X while a 24X optic might be at it's best about 20-22X. So again....with the 24X scope you will still have that extra bit to make out any detail you want at these medium to long range.

    If you want a SFP optic there are some nice offerings from Nightforce, but are usually quite pricey.

    If you can afford it the Vortex Razor is a superb optic.

    If not check out the Vortex Viper PST either Gen 1 (less expensive) or the Gen II..... (more expensive.) Get the EBR 2 reticle.

    Very popular optics are the Bushnell DMR and the Burris XTR II. If going for Bushnell get the G2 reticle and same for Burris although they are different.

    The EBR2 and G2 reticles are like a christmas tree and are great for holding for elevation and wind.

    Also...pick a scope that has:

    Exposed tactical turrets

    Zero stop

    1/4 value clicks

    As much elevation adjustment as possible.

    An illuminated reticle is nice, especially if you will be taking important shots in low light but is not 100% necessary. Requires batteries which always seem to die when you really need them. Some less expensive optics you have to crank the illumination power to see it and then risk blowing out your eyes night vision.

    Definitely plan on getting a 20MOA picatinny scope base for the rifle and a bubble scope level. A Switchview throw lever is also helpful but not necessary.

    From experience I have the Vortex Viper PST 6-24X50 MOA FFP and Bushnell DMR 3.5-21X50 FFP Mil optics on my precision rifles and I have a lot of time on them. I had a Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 SFP MOA scope but don't have it anymore. Wasn't enough magnification for me. I absolutely love the Bushnell....the glass is superb and I just love the G2 reticle. The Vortex is a very nice scope but I'm married to the G2 reticle and mil now. Still, it serves me very well on my .308 precision gun.

    Now that the Gen II Bushnell DMR and Vortex Viper optics are coming out....perhaps look for lower used prices on the Gen 1 versions. Don't know if it works like that over there.

    Just me but forget about BDC reticles for long range. Ranging and Ballistics software will take care of all of that for you. Also forget about duplex etc reticles. Leave those for hunting. You must have a reticle with subtensions that match the turrets.

    Oh... sometimes you might need to take precise shots on targets at less than 100Y....say in a tactical competition or if you put the scope on a .22 rifle for a shoot. In this case it will help to have a scope that will parallax down to a closer setting than 50 or 100Y. Otherwise if you do get a dedicated .22 scope, get one with an adjustable objective.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Scope Size. Longer Range

    I think the OP needs to be a bit more specific regarding what Long range means to him

    To some long range is 500m+, to others long range is anything over 1000m

    What is the application, ie what are you going to be shooting at?

    FFP is awesome for hunting, veldskiet and gong type exercises, but currently, SFP scopes seem to dominate over 1000m shooting with shooters all doping their scopes and using some form of ballistic program, strelok etc

    Also consider how much MOA adjustment you intended scope has, you may run out of elevation !

    There really is much to consider when selecting a scope, often a more difficult choice than selecting the cal or Rifle itself

  6. #16

    Default Re: Scope Size. Longer Range

    Yeti, Plan is 500m probably 80% of time as our club range only goes that far currently.
    But when we go to farm I would like to stretch it to 1000m. Not so far planning or worried over a 1000.
    But since these scopes are not cheap. And they going to be used for couple of years on the rifle.
    I want to try buy correct and to accommodate just a bit maybe more then Im going to start off with.

    I have noticed over weekend visiting shops and googling.
    That most Tactical named/orientated models seem to favor a center dot. The once Ive seen.
    While the competition named models. Which I reckon is paper more then Gongs.
    Where shooter is not time sensitive. Seem to go crosshair.
    Although ive seen couple tactical once cross hair also.

    Currently it seems options and combinations are immense and get mind bogling.

    At one shop saw a Burris 8-40 with 34mm tube. Which is massive scope in size.
    Was amazed it would even fit on a rifle.

    Then when checking difference between mil and moa. They say again moa favors target shooters on paper.
    As adjustments is finer. Then Mil. Mil again makes calculations easier. And shooting faster.
    Guy for example says at 100m with mil to him it can be just left of vertical line. And click tight puts it just right of line.
    But MOA will put it on Vertical line. But if i work back the math. Between Mil and 1/4Moa at 100m.
    Its +-2mm difference in movement. So not as much as he makes it out.

    So its been a mind boggling weekend looking at scopes to say the least.

    Ive decided on one. Saying. Yip this one.
    Then hour later check something again on specs. Then saying wait this one.
    Then hour again. lol

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Scope Size. Longer Range

    Between Mil and 1/4Moa at 100m.

    Disaster right there... at long range you are only making this a bigger stuff up.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Scope Size. Longer Range

    You want the system used by your reticule & your turrets to be the same. I'm a fan of Mildot scopes with 1/10 MRAD turrets, but if you prefer a MOA based solution then make sure its MOA/MOA

    Regarding the choice between FFP & SFP, my advice would always be to choose SFP unless you understand why you need FFP. In my opinion, for most people, and most applications, SFP is the better choice.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Scope Size. Longer Range

    but if you prefer a MOA based solution then make sure its MOA/MOA

    And then set your rangefinder to Yards. Infact, if you want to use MOA, rather use IPHY as it will stay true to 1/4" per 100 yards extrapolated for long range.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Scope Size. Longer Range

    Recommend not to overlook the need for a zero stop if you intend to engage targets at different distances during the same session at over 500m. Have often witnessed guys having no idea what they have dialed in and having to go back to zero and start over.

    Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk

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