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  1. #21
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    Default Re: INFRARED SPECTROSCOPY OF FIRECLEAN AND CRISCO OILS

    Quote Originally Posted by Messor View Post
    Just this part, I am too dumb to understand.
    What do you mean?
    Bearings and expecially ball or roller bearings tend to keep the grease inside the bearings for extended periods. So, while the rolling elements are pushing the grease out of their way as they roll, they also draw the grease back in behind them when they have passed, thus staying lubricated. In some applications, bearings can work for many years before they need to be re-greased.

    Plain bushes also do this, but to a lesser extent, and have to be re-greased periodically.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: INFRARED SPECTROSCOPY OF FIRECLEAN AND CRISCO OILS

    That is what I was wondering.

    Lets say you use a car wheel bearing.
    Lithium is our lightest metal but a metal none the less.
    I understand the rolling action of bearings replenish the grease it pushes out, but still the tolerance must then be damned tight, otherwise the centrifugal forces will just push most of the lithium towards the outside casing of the bearing house.

    Firearms on the other hand work in opposing directions instead of circular motions.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: INFRARED SPECTROSCOPY OF FIRECLEAN AND CRISCO OILS

    Quote Originally Posted by Messor View Post
    That is what I was wondering.

    Lets say you use a car wheel bearing.
    Lithium is our lightest metal but a metal none the less.
    I understand the rolling action of bearings replenish the grease it pushes out, but still the tolerance must then be damned tight, otherwise the centrifugal forces will just push most of the lithium towards the outside casing of the bearing house.

    Firearms on the other hand work in opposing directions instead of circular motions.
    Depending on the wheel bearing type, there may be a little to zero gap between moving parts. Tapered roller bearings, for example, are often pre-loaded to remove any play.

    Just remember that Lithium-based wheel bearing grease does not contain any metal particles. The soapy carrier is lithium based only.

    The reciprocating parts on FA's will indeed not "draw in" any lube as well as rotating bearings would. This explains the frequency of re-lubing required in FA's. (Of course, the build-up of carbon and other deposits in FA's also require re-lubing and cleaning.)

  4. #24

    Default Re: INFRARED SPECTROSCOPY OF FIRECLEAN AND CRISCO OILS

    Good posts in this thread by A-R and ZS6..!
    Nice questions, Messor!

    Turned into a worthwhile thread, IMO.

    Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

  5. #25

    Default Lubrication Discussion

    The thickener used is highly relevant. On firearms, lithium is fine for most applications. However, if you are operating weapons in a marine environment where they may be subject to salt spray, an aluminium-based thickener provides far better corrosion protection.

    I will post later in relation to the requirements for an ideal grease for an LMG. I wonder if it is not worth taking this discussion into a separate thread?
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit: occidentis telum est.

    Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD)

  6. #26

    Default Re: Lubrication Discussion

    So,

    Fabrique Nationale d’Herstal states the following in my workshop manual for the FN MAG:

    We strongly advise the use of a soft grease that can easily be spread with a brush, and the basic characteristics and ingredients of which could be similar to those given below:

    Worked penetration: 250 to 350
    Dropping point: > 80°C
    Soap: Aluminium
    Rust preventative: Proportion
    Graphite: 15 to 20%

    Now I am no tribologist but as I understand it, aluminium soap is specifically suitable for use in marine conditions as it has salt corrosion resistance which something like a standard lithium grease does not. If however you are not operating in a salt spray environment, then the Aluminium is probably not necessary. A general-purpose grease like Castrol LM NLGI 2 falls within the foregoing worked penetration requirements and dropping point requirements. It does however not have graphite in it, at least as far as I know.

    Note however that Fabrique Nationale d’Herstal is not prescriptive about the grease – it gives a general guideline. Interestingly too, as far as I know, they do not sell any specific grease for their products. You would think that if there was any sort of "wonder lubricant for weapons" if anybody would tell you about it, it would probably be Fabrique Nationale d’Herstal.

    PS: a bit of a disclaimer here – my manual for the FN MAG is a little bit of an old one and dates from about 1973; so read the above in that context. But I doubt whether a great deal has changed in terms of the requirements of the FN MAG from a lubrication perspective, since then. Obviously lubricants may have moved on – indeed, they have. But still, the information above is given as is and on a basis of "for what it is worth".
    Last edited by Wanderin' Zero; 11-06-2017 at 09:48.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit: occidentis telum est.

    Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD)

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Lubrication Discussion

    There is some knowledgeable lube guys here...

    Dont laugh.... But I have heard someone tell me once, which I cannot confirm, that FN FAL's / R1 rifles were lubed with Baby powder in very dusty conditions in the "Border War".

    Will Baby powder provide any meaningfull benefit as a dry lube?

  8. #28

    Default Re: Lubrication Discussion

    Yes, it will work – up to a point; it would appear to have a similar effect to dry graphite dust.

    Incidentally, not all guns require lubrication. The Sten gun for example was famous for the fact that it ran quite happily without lubrication. One could quite happily fill the entire breach area an operating system of the gun with desert sand, shake it out and then fire the weapon. The injected cartridge cases would sometimes be bulged but it seemed to make no difference to the way the gun ran. Really surprising given that it was such a cheap gun but that I suppose is the consequence of loose tolerances.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit: occidentis telum est.

    Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD)

  9. #29

    Default Re: INFRARED SPECTROSCOPY OF FIRECLEAN AND CRISCO OILS

    And more awesome info from WZ.

    @Messor - the lithium, aluminium, sodium are all part of the respective soap molecules, so not as metal particles. Just like iron is part of your blood, but you don't rust

    Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

  10. #30

    Default Re: Lubrication Discussion

    Let me add a little bit more and say that you do not need to buy expensive products to clean caked on carbon off the gas pistons on rifles. Go buy yourself a bottle of Scubbs ammonia (credit note: Spiggs put me onto this). Simply soak the piston head in the ammonia for a few hours – take it out and rub it vigorously with a cloth. Then put it back in for a few more hours. If it is really difficult to get off use one of those green 3M type of kitchen scourers but use it gently and with discretion, rubbing only the carbon. It should not take you more than 24 hours or so to get the thing completely shiny clean. And it only costs… Well, next to nothing. You will note that the ammonia turns a beautiful Royal blue. That tells you it is killing the carbon. You can continue using it – it will eventually evaporate away, at which point it is time to get another bottle.

    All that said, be careful which parts of your weapon you expose to ammonia. Gas pistons are not affected by it – but be careful with aluminium, brass components and so forth. It should not be used on anything other than the gas pistons.

    If you need to clean the guts of something like a pistol, which is difficult to disassemble or is not intended to be disassembled by anybody other than a gunsmith, then what you need is a can of brake cleaner. You can spray the inside and it will get all the carbon and gunk off. But be careful with getting it on your hands – the stuff is not good for you. The other thing is you will see that it evaporates rapidly and leaves the metal "completely naked" (obviously ideal on metal brake surfaces). This is not a problem with stainless steel type metals, nitrided surfaces and blued surfaces. But where you have naked metal, it can start to corrode if you do not immediately coat it with an appropriate lubricant after you have finished cleaning the weapon or the relevant part. As a general rule, I prefer to use something more mild to clean components – and sometimes just wiping it with a cloth will be sufficient. But when a firearm has been used really heavily, sometimes this is a very convenient way to get the filth off parts that you find it hard to access.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit: occidentis telum est.

    Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD)

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