Your gun swept you... have a DQ

[Trundle]

I have no dog in this fight.
I don’t know anyone DQ’d in this manner.

I’m questioning what I believe are stupid DQ’s or SO’s that are not showing true leadership, nor the ability to advance the sport of IDPA.

First, the relevant rules.

2.2 Unsafe firearm handling will result in immediate Disqualification (DQ) from an IDPA match. The following is a nonexclusive list of unsafe behaviors.

1. Endangering any person, including yourself. This includes sweeping one’s self or anyone else with a loaded or unloaded firearm. Sweeping is defined as allowing the muzzle of the firearm (loaded or unloaded) to cross or cover any portion of a person.

Exception: Some body types combined with some holster types makes it almost impossible to holster a firearm or remove the firearm from the holster without sweeping a portion of the shooter’s lower extremities.
Thus, a match Disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the shooter’s own body below the belt while removing the firearm from the holster or holstering of the firearm, provided that the shooter’s trigger finger is clearly outside of the trigger guard.
However, once the muzzle of the firearm is clear of the holster on the draw, sweeping any part of the body is a Disqualification. Example: Sweeping one’s leg on a seated start is a DQ.

So here is the scenario.

The shooter first stages his FA on a table, next he then places his magazines in front of the muzzle. Effectively exposing himself to the warm end of the gun.

Reading the rules above, he has not swept himself and therefore should not be DQ’d.

Before you jump onto your keyboard and start kicking back about big boy rules, and unsafe gun handling, think of this.

Gun owners are continuously on the campaign to tell people how safe firearms are.
Guns cannot go off, or discharge on their own.
This is a mantra that we repeat and repeat, ad nausea.
We EDC one-up in nutsack carry, without a care in the world.
The same with the magical rifle bags that prevents long-guns from firing.
Every person walking into a gunshop will be swept by an unattended FA. Do you refuse to venture forth where dragons be?

But woe-betide the poor fool that puts a mag down in front of an unattended firearm, because THAT is unsafe gun handling, and that requires an immediate DQ. Because we are playing big boy’s games and bigger rules apply.

Bullshit guys. The gun is unattended, and by our own frequent admission the gun cannot pose a danger to anyone.

Would not at most, a warning apply?

Personally, I may mention it as something to watch, but hell, DQ’ing a shooter for a stupid infraction like this does not advance the sport. It just breeds a type of SO that is unable to lead and only able to apply a rule.

Can you imagine the GFSA acolyte that comes to a shoot and watches the antics of SO’s acting as if guns are evil incarnate on the range, but out in the real world, everyone is singing…. guns are safe as houses and only the uneducated and unqualified would suggest that they are dangerous.

[neilh]

DQ. The end

That exception only applies to unholstering and re-holstering. Not for table starts

Its also a DQ in IPSC

[Lian]

the rule is there out of principle. principles = less exceptions and less technicalities.

dont do X, except A and except B and except C and some times except D
or rather just stick with dont do X.

[Trundle]

neilh, The exception is there for completeness, not as a reason.

Lian, nope. It's not a principle, it's a stupid DQ.

EDIT: I highlighted the relevant portion above.

[Grobbie]

People are stupid. Myself included.

It might keeps us in one piece to be pedantic about some of the rules.


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[SafeAction]

Extract:

2.1 Cooper's Four Basic Rules
Colonel Jeff Cooper’s Four Basic Rules of Firearm Safety have appeared in the beginning pages of books, videos, and
training courses for more than 30 years. They are time honored and although they are not IDPA safety rules, they serve
as the foundation of the safety rules below.
* All guns are always loaded.
* Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
* Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.
* Identify your target, and what is behind it.
The Safety Rules below serve as the cornerstone for every IDPA shooter to follow, including Safety Officers (SOs), Match
Directors (MDs), and Area Coordinators (ACs), so that our events are safe and enjoyable to a wide range of participants.

The rules are not only for the shooter to comply to, If the SO performed any other action, e.g. a warning, they are in contravention....

Further to this, of the 4 basic safety rules, there was a discussion of which one is the most important....
The Answer: * Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
And now you want to let that rule "slide".

Hangfire, accidentally pulling the trigger, internal malfunction, someone else grabbing it.... has no effect if the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction, or at something you are willing to destroy.

[Tetelestai]

I'm reminded of the teenage girl that died a few years ago, removing a "safe" hunting rifle from a gun bag for cleaning. She did it by grabbing the barrel and pulling the rifle out of the bag towards her. Now yes, she did touch it but she probably touched it that way because "the gun is safe and can't go off". In other words a lax attitude to the good Colonel's 4 Rules cost her her life. That lax attitude comes about from finding more exceptions to the rule. Sooner or later the rule doesn't appear all that important in everyday firearms handling any more. Oftentimes, Murphy's law then enters the frame.

Sorry Trundle, I'm not with you. I suspect few on here will be.

[Trundle]

Thank you SafeAction.

Yes, I hear you and I understand what you are trying to convey.

My argument is for a firearm that IS NOT in someones hand. Every safety rule is for a firearm that is in someones hand.
The only rule I can find for an unattended firearm is if the shooter is more than one meter away from his FA unless it is staged.

HOWEVER.
I'll rebut as follows.

1) Colonel Jeff Cooper’s Four Basic Rules of Firearm Safety have appeared in the beginning pages of books, videos, and
training courses for more than 30 years. They are time honored and although they are not IDPA safety rules, they serve
as the foundation of the safety rules below.

2) The Answer: * Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
And now you want to let that rule "slide".

So, I'm presuming that when your FA is on the dining-room table / Bedside table / tucked under your mattress etc that it never points at yourself or a loved one.
Also do you carry Appendix? how safe is your femoral and your nutsack? Alternatively if at 3/4 'o clock, I really hope you don't bend over and muzzle someone else, 'cos hell, you might destroy them.

[Trundle]

TTT, once again I hear you.
That FA in your example was being handled and thus falls into the 4 rules, as it should be.

My argument is this.

The firearm is NOT being handled and a hand moves in front of it.

[STREETRACER]

This happened to a shooter in our squad this weekend at Nnats..

Let me tell you about good sportsmanship.. this was our very first stage at nationals, he did not get to shoot one shot at nationals. He stayed the whole day and returned the following day from another town to assist the squad with patching, picking up brass and being our scoring nanny!


Hats off, you are a legend sir!