Avoiding getting a PE in a big match...

[Tayls]

Hi All,

Like a number of other members on GS, I have also just participated in Northern Nationals this past weekend and was on the receiving end of an SO's decision, which resulted in me receiving a PE (3 secs). Sadly this PE also meant that I dropped a place lower in my division.

I have pondered over this issue and the circumstances surrounding it for the last few days and am now in a position to ask my fellow members to consider the scenario and provide me with your thoughts and input on what to do should this type of thing ever happen again.

To be clear, the purpose of this post is not to criticise the SO, nor to "bitch, moan and complain" about IDPA or the rule book.

Background:
1) I have previously received a PE in a league shoot for being one round short in my first mag (i.e. my first mag was loaded to "division capacity" and not to "division capacity + 1 round")... Given this background, from that day on I have made it a habit to always keep the starting mag in my pocket/cover garment (and separate from my other mags). In addition, I also always now check and re-check all of the mags to ensure that they are all loaded correctly. I mean, if you can avoid receiving this type of PE by doing so, why wouldn't you!?

2) Fast forward to Northern Nationals 2017. I followed my usual procedure re the mags prior to stepping on to the line on Stage 9 (viz. the stage with the dummy where you needed to advance with it under your arm, while shooting strong hand only). I also re-checked my starting mag when I was given the "load and make ready" command and distinctly remember seeing that the starting mag indeed had the required "division capacity + 1 round" in it.

3) I proceeded to shoot the stage. Once done and after I had unloaded and the range had been declared safe, the SO indicated that I had had one round short in my starting mag and would accordingly be getting a PE. At that point all I could do was to say that I had checked and re-checked my starting mag (prior to stepping onto the line) and had again re-checked the number of rounds in the starting mag (prior to loading it into my FA at the "load and make ready" command).

The response I received was "let's check the timer", which we duly did.

4) The timer indicated that 8 shots had been fired (instead of 9) and there then appeared to be a break of around 2 - 2.4 secs or so (if i recall correctly), before my shooting re-commenced. This the SO took to be definitive proof that I must have only had 8 shots in my starting mag (instead of the required 9). I found this rather confusing (given my checks above) and queried this with the SO, who then called the assistant SO to take a look as well.

At this point it is important for me to say that I was polite when querying this issue with the SO and at no point did I create a "dispute" or was I unpleasant or "arsy" about it. The SO and assistant SO seemed to take umbrage at my querying this issue and said that "they were not lying" and, further, that the "timer never lies"... which I found a little off-putting and unnecessary.

5) I duly accepted the PE and checked the targets with the SO.

6) One of my fellow squad members subsequently indicated that he had filmed me shooting this stage and, the evening after N.Nats had finished, sent this to me. Upon closer examination of the video, it was clear that I had double-tapped my final two shots in the starting mag (just after having taken a knee)... and, upon examination and re-examination of the video (which had been shot at fairly close range), it became clear that I had indeed had in my starting mag and had fired 9 shots (and not 8 shots, as the SO and assistant SO had said).

This video I also sent on to a number of members from our squad, all of whom also confirmed that they could hear 9 shots (including a double-tap) from the starting mag.

Why am I raising this issue?
I can only think that the SO's timer must have been set with too long an echo exclusion, which resulted in the second shot of the double-tap failing to register. As such, I believe that the SO came to the right conclusion when checking the timer. That said, I found it a little surprising that the SO or assistant SO had not counted my shots (especially since he had confirmed prior to me starting shooting that I was shooting in the CCP division).

In addition, the IDPA rules clearly say the following in para 4.5.2:--

"Video cannot be used to determine the shooter’s score or appeal the decision of an SO."

Given the above circumstances, not to mention the rule above, what, if anything can one do in these circumstances to prove something which you are not allowed to prove except with video evidence (which, ironically, would have definitively confirmed what I had been saying)?

I really would appreciate constructive input and advice on the following:--

(a) do other SO's/assistant SO's count the number of shots fired by a shooter during big matches?
(b) how can one best raise and disagree with the SO's ruling (without upsetting them/getting their backs up)?
(c) how can one prove your case in circumstances like this (or do you just need to "suck up the PE, buttercup"),

since an unnecessary (and incorrect) PE like this really can ruin one's chances in a big match (and may well mean that one doesn't end up on the podium -- fortunately not the case for me in this year's N.Nats).

[Proudprado]

You've been shooting this game for a while. If you don't have the answer, I'm not sure anyone does. Calling the MD is not going to help you, but I think it might help other shooters if the complaint comes up again and again. I know one of the shooters on our squad had the same problem on the same stage. I simply don't have a better answer.

The same issue comes up with a faulty chronograph. I know for a fact Yeti tested his rounds in the week before nationals. Then he pitches and gets disqualified before his last stage. Yes, he got called back, but if someone tells me to go home because my rounds are too slow, it will take me a while to recover. I'd screw up many stages after before I forget.

You did well and Yeti did well too. The technology is not infallible. But maybe we should do better tests on every instrument before the match starts? Having said that, I'm not sure if or what the guys did.

While technology can be sorted, there are also very strong personalities involved in the sport. While I might tell one SO to go read up on his rules, I might be very hesitant to do so with another. But that is a whole different can of worms. The sport is not perfect. Show me one that is.

[gezza14]

Tayls, I take it you were either shooting CCP or CDP? What was your stage plan?

[Tayls]

Tayls, I take it you were either shooting CCP or CDP? What was your stage plan?

CCP.

Stage plan was to make sure I went zero down on the first 3 head-shot only targets shot on the move (which I did) and then complete the mag on the RH target from low cover (which I proceeded to do).

On re-examining the video, I guess I could have tried to argue that there were 2 shots in the RH target and, further, that I had not re-engaged that target with my second mag... and therefore that I must have indeed had 9 rounds in the first mag. That said, in the heat of the moment (after finishing shooting) and given the fact that the SO's hackles were already raised, I suspect that this argument would not have worked either...

[Tayls]

You've been shooting this game for a while. If you don't have the answer, I'm not sure anyone does.

Calling the MD is not going to help you, but I think it might help other shooters if the complaint comes up again and again. I know one of the shooters on our squad had the same problem on the same stage. I simply don't have a better answer.

The technology is not infallible. But maybe we should do better tests on every instrument before the match starts? Having said that, I'm not sure if or what the guys did.

Thanks PP -- you have made some interesting comments which I have included above. Surely food for thought.

[Tayls]

I can only think that the SO's timer must have been set with too long an echo exclusion, which resulted in the second shot of the double-tap failing to register.

PS. ... or perhaps the timer used was just incapable of registering a quick double tap (don't know where the SO was while I was going down on one knee)... perhaps his proximity to my FA might have also played a role here...

[gezza14]

By right there should be 3 in the first target from the knee if you ran 9 rounds? Assuming you dumped one? Sorry the reason i asked is because i had one of my squad have a very similar issue. He ran esp but dumped 3 on the second target from the knee for a better mag change. Nearly also got a PE

Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk

[Tayls]

By right there should be 3 in the first target from the knee if you ran 9 rounds? Assuming you dumped one? Sorry the reason i asked is because i had one of my squad have a very similar issue. He ran esp but dumped 3 on the second target from the knee for a better mag change. Nearly also got a PE

Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk

Nope bud. I needed to fill in on one of the head-shot only targets (the RH one) since I hit the head but missed the zero down zone with one of my shots taken from further away (and had allowed for an extra shot while walking forward, in my stage plan).

[bronxlive]

Tayls you are not alone on this. We had the same issue twice in our squad on the same stage. (Well actually 3 very questionable PE's)

The first was a fellow club member of mine that was also given a PE for having 10 rounds in his starting mag and it is rather impossible as he did the mag change where one would have if he had 11 rounds as he didn't fill in on any targets. He left it and just carried on(this actually cost him a gold medal)

Second shooter had a video of him that clearly shows him firing 11 shots before reloading. The SO said the timer shows a gap between shot 10 and 11 and he must have reloaded. (As a SO myself I can not see how you can use that argument to give a PE)

The third was for not moving while shooting and the video clip also shows the shooters one foot in the air moving while taking the shot.

[SafeAction]

If you were shooting accurately, counting the holes and explaining your walkthrough to the SO would help to clarify.On our stage I had a shooter register 14 shots on the timer, and ending in slidelock, looking at the holes there were only 11, and if you review the splits, not many can shoot a 0.007. Thus very unlikely that there was indeed 14 shots fired.As scoring SO with slower shooters it is easy to count, once the rapid fire starts not as easy to keep up.Had another shooter end on slidelock, registering 12 shots, he also had 12 holes in the target...