308 and the need for premium bullets.

[Daniel55]

I have only ever hunted with cup and core bullets. I have posted a few threads asking about premium bullets but never really commit to changing over. In all fairness, i have seen only the good of cup and core , none of the shooters around me use magnum calibres.In my case 180gr Pro-amms. So i sent a PM to one of what i regard, experienced members asking about premium bullet choice for the bush , and a choice for the occasional plains hunt. This was his response and said I can post this reply to stimulate further discussion and input from others.


My answer may surprise you.But,please keep in mind that i am not considering monos at all.I have limited experience with them personally but have guided clients on many different animals using monos of different makes in a variety of calibers and have seen some work and just as many failures...as in bullet punching through the animal with no expansion at all as well as bullets deflecting and changing direction inside an animal.

Our hunting conditions are particularly harsh in the Eastern Cape,on any one day we may hunt springbuck in the vlaktes and then later on kudu in the thickets and all of a sudden you get a shot on a kudu bull across a kloof.So,you could be looking at small creatures close or far as well as large creatures close or far.

To be specific to your needs....Sierra Gameking hollow point boat tail of 165gr....loaded to 2600fps.

Use the hollow point and not the soft point which has an exposed lead tip...they are very different bullets.

While practically any 180gr bullet from a 308 will do the job,so will the 165gr Sierra HPBT.

Plusses:
1]At 308 velocity you do not need a premium bullet...start running at 2800fps and up...different story.
2]They do not carry a high price tag which will allow you to practice without breaking the bank.
3]Meat damage will be minimal on a small animal at close distance.
4]Bullet will still have enough "oomph] at 250-300m to penetrate through the shoulder bone of a kudu bull.
5]Trajectory slightly better than the 180gr at distance.

Finally...do not overthink things..you will put doubt in your mind.
Go to the range and sight your rifle in at 2 inches high at 100m.Then shoot at a target at 200m and then 300m and note the bullet drop.This is easily compensated for while hunting.

Do not mix and match bullets for different conditions,stick to one and use it for all your hunting.

So lets hear what you have to say. Bearing in mind we talking about good shot placement, being sure of your shot, etc.

[pblaauw]

I have little to comment on, but a story to share (which I did a full post on last year). I shoot a 3006, plain Howa. Nothing fancy, but she does the job. Friend of mine left for UAE and gifted me near 200 x 180gn Nosler Ballistic tips. He could not get them to shoot in his Remington 308. I tried in vein to get them to group in my rifle but just had no luck. I went on a hunt with these bullets and a lack of confidence. I wounded a Eland and we had a 45min chase.

I also played with 130gn Impala mono's at the time, and got a really nice load worked up with the help of pre64 here on the forum. Later that same day using the Impala's I downed two Blesbuck without effort.

Since then I bought a box of 165gn Sierra Gameking's and they will shoot 1/2 MOA easily out of my rifle if I do my part. Hopefully if the hunt we have in August goes as planned I will go with a lot more confidence. Now when I find a box of 165gn Sierra Gameking in 30 cal I buy it. As you say, stick to what works! Incidentally, I gave the remaining Nosler Ballistic Tips to my friend Koebelwagen on the forum, and his 300WM just loves them!

Even though I know my 3006 will take a Eland without issue, I asked my hunting buddy if I could use his 338LM this year to shoot Eland using a 285gn Barnes mono... I've never seen what a 338LM does to a Eland, but I'm sure it will go straight through leaving enough blood for TStone or drop it fairly quick!

[264WinMag]

I shoot a 308 with a 1:12 twist.

I have used SGK 150 gr, 130gr GSC, 155 gr Amax and have recently loaded some 150gr TTSX (not used on game). All have served me very well, except the Banres which I have not hunted with. The GSC bullet which fly at 3200fps work very nice, allows for a flatter trajetory, but have a downside when you hunt at close ranges like the bushveld. The A-Max bullets work very nice for head shots and expand nicely at longer ranges.

I have enough confidence in any of the above bullts to take longer shots which is the most important as you have mentioned.

The bullets I use now is the A-max bullets except when we hunt in the bushveld which calls for closer shots - hence the barnes load.

Raving Diode did wright a review on the SGK with the hollow point which failed to penetrate to the vitals on a gemsbuck with a broadside shot and failed to reach the vertebrae on a neck shot.

[Dale SH]

Daniel.

You going around in circles.

I will have my last say in this regard.

1. I have never seen a good quality mono not expand. I am aware of and all the manufacturers warn you of getting dirt in the hollow point of a mono. Should this happen then the bullet may indeed act like a solid as it relies on the hydraulic pressure created inside the hollow point to initiate the expansion/mushroom.
2. I think that there are too many camp-fire stories about monos acting like solids and needing hyper velocities to initiate expansion
3. You need to differentiate between a solid mono (Impala) and an expanding/fragmenting mono. I can concur with whoever gave you the advise about monos changing direction inside the body, as I have personally witnessed this recently. However this was with an Impala SOLID mono with the extremely sharp point. The point bent on entry and the bullet did indeed deflect. I have never seen this on an expanding mono.
4. Meat damage is relative to shot placement. A slow cup and core will do just as much damage as a mono should you hit a thick shoulder bone. Its not the bullet that creates the severe damage, it's the exploding (think hand grenade) bone fragments that are responsible for the red jelly meat. Once again I saw this personally on my last hunt when I hit a kudu cow square on the shoulder joint. Cow quartered away from me as I pulled the shot.
However the cow died on the spot as the mono still penetrated through the bone and exited the neck. I would still prefer (as would TStone if I read his original post about cup and core bullets correctly) to have a bullet that still exits after striking big bones and leaves a blood trail should the animal be wounded versus a bullet that may destroy itself on the thick bone and not penetrate through to the vitals.
I take TStone's opinion very seriously, the man hunts more animals and analyses more carcases in a season than most of us hunt in our lifetime.

Yes I do also believe in spending more time practising and perfecting shot placement, but in reality this is not always 100% possible.

In your case and as per your previous thread you would like a one load do it all combo. In reality it does not exist but there are certain bullets/caliber combinations that may come close.

I remind you that I am in no way connected to any of the bullet manufacturers. This is my opinion based on my experiences.

[pre 64]

Interesting thread.
In past threads [recent] we have TStone looking for a load to use with 180gr conventional cup and core bullets to reach a velocity of 2600fps in his 308.This was to duplicate the good performance he has achieved using a conventional bullet in his 6.5 running at the same speed.

Then we have Messor who has recently had phenominal success as far as penetration is concerned on warthog using Sierra GK"s.

I have allways stated that a conventional bullet is good as long as the velocity is kept below 2600 or so fps.

The thing is...a lot of different bullets work for different people.

Back to the OP"s question....are premium or mono"s required at typical 308 velocities......interesting one.

[shooty]

Ive been shooting my Remington 700 VSSF on range and hunting for close to 20 years. 1/12twist.
I only use 150gr Sako Super hammerheads. Use to be 156 Hammerheads years back.
And for on range I use 155. PMP Palma Match that use to be available. Sierra Match 155 and currently Hornady Amax 155.
As soon as stock arrive will give the Hornady ELDX a try.

Never had any issues while hunting with 150 Sako's Furthest shot was on Fellow Deer. 340-350m.
Have taken Kudu at +-250. All rib cage/blad where heart sits. On even the Kudu it went straight through.
Just dropped.
Currently my Sako 150's are doing 2633fps.
42gr s335 in a 26" barrel

[Messor]

Back to the OP"s question....are premium or mono"s required at typical 308 velocities

What's really gonna bake your noodle later is wondering if people need to shoot bullets faster than typical 308 velocities in the first place.

[Sean KZN]

I think that the medium sized antelope that we normally shoot, I mean average Joe like me who hunts once or twice a year, those antelope don't take a whole lot of killing, a decent shot in the vitals and they expire fairly rapidly.
I started using round nosed bullets as the terrain where I hunt is really thick, a hundred metre shot would be far. I pulled a shot on an Impala, hitting it low in the chest behind the foreleg. It staggered a bit and expired. I'm still not sure what was damaged that killed it. Bullet was 180gr round nose at 2400 fps.

Another chap, similar conditions had a shot at a blue wildebeest. Frontal shot, 180gr bullet at 2500 fps. It performed as expected, but passed the heart, barely nicking an artery and carried on between the lungs without damaging either. Ended up in the intestines. He said it was wobbling around a bit so put another shot in. Done deal.

I his case he and I are wondering if a premium bullet would make a difference. Thinking it through, the way the shot went through the animal, I don't think so.

But If I were to hunt something a bit larger, such as a wildebeest, kudu or eland I would certainly want to have a premium bullet to use, just in case things go wrong and a heavy bone or some other unexpected chain of events occurs.

[SBB]

Daniel.You going around in circles.I will have my last say in this regard.1. I have never seen a good quality mono not expand. I am aware of and all the manufacturers warn you of getting dirt in the hollow point of a mono. Should this happen then the bullet may indeed act like a solid as it relies on the hydraulic pressure created inside the hollow point to initiate the expansion/mushroom.2. I think that there are too many camp-fire stories about monos acting like solids and needing hyper velocities to initiate expansion3. You need to differentiate between a solid mono (Impala) and an expanding/fragmenting mono. I can concur with whoever gave you the advise about monos changing direction inside the body, as I have personally witnessed this recently. However this was with an Impala SOLID mono with the extremely sharp point. The point bent on entry and the bullet did indeed deflect. I have never seen this on an expanding mono.4. Meat damage is relative to shot placement. A slow cup and core will do just as much damage as a mono should you hit a thick shoulder bone. Its not the bullet that creates the severe damage, it's the exploding (think hand grenade) bone fragments that are responsible for the red jelly meat. Once again I saw this personally on my last hunt when I hit a kudu cow square on the shoulder joint. Cow quartered away from me as I pulled the shot.However the cow died on the spot as the mono still penetrated through the bone and exited the neck. I would still prefer (as would TStone if I read his original post about cup and core bullets correctly) to have a bullet that still exits after striking big bones and leaves a blood trail should the animal be wounded versus a bullet that may destroy itself on the thick bone and not penetrate through to the vitals.I take TStone's opinion very seriously, the man hunts more animals and analyses more carcases in a season than most of us hunt in our lifetime.Yes I do also believe in spending more time practising and perfecting shot placement, but in reality this is not always 100% possible.In your case and as per your previous thread you would like a one load do it all combo. In reality it does not exist but there are certain bullets/caliber combinations that may come close.I remind you that I am in no way connected to any of the bullet manufacturers. This is my opinion based on my experiences.

Hi Dale.I have seen a good number of monos fail to expand. They have got more reliable now with the polymer inserts.That said i have seen all bullet types fail. Folk need to realise this is a possibility alongside poor shot placement etc etc. Hell ive seen bullets do things beyond what one would think possible.Reality these days, folks chase velocity and want to brag about distance shooting.Find what works for you. Use it within manufacture specs and acknowledge weird things do happen but prepare for them.

[pblaauw]

What's really gonna bake your noodle later is wondering if people need to shoot bullets faster than typical 308 velocities in the first place.

Someone at Winchester Repeating Arms Company also wondered about that in 1963...