Question: use of force during a kidnapping?

**Ds J** · 02-10-2017, 19:58

Evening Folks!

I have read and reread threads on kidnapping but I have not been able to get a final or definitive answer. At least not something that I comprehend to my own satisfaction. It mostly has to do with not being a legal eagle.

Please bare with me: kidnapping is a schedule 1 offense, yet technically the life of a child being kidnapped is not in direct danger. Kids usually get kidnapped for drugs and prostitution, ransom etc. However, the purpose or end effect of the kidnapping is in effect a severe transgression against the life of the child. Therefore the act of kidnapping can be viewed as an attack on the life of the child.

Do I get this right?

Now to the practical side of things: I am shopping, my attention gets turned away from my child/ren and when I turn back he/she is in the arms of an unknown person.

How much force may I use to ensure the safety / stop the attack?

More important: what type of force may I use to ensure the safety/ stop the attack?

The thing that has me worried is that in the reported cases here on Gunsite the would be kidnappers often just turned and laughed or had some lame excuse.

The best would be to tazer or pepper spray the perpetrator and arrest him?

I do not want to go to jail after being accused of assault while actually rescuing my child.

I do not want to lose a child to a kidnapper because I was entitled to use more force and did not do it.

**CorditeCrazy** · 02-10-2017, 20:55

Ds its a tough call and I suppose the circumstances dictate how far you go to secure your child. Playing various scenarios, with possible outcomes, in your mind good as you become mentally prepared to act

**Minerva10210** · 02-10-2017, 21:01

Following this with interest, as I have thought about this as well.

Our little man has a very "likeable" nature, and is very friendly (most of the time I suppose, being a 3yo toddler), so does garner a lot of interest from random strangers when out and about at the shops.

Like you mention Ds. I have also seen some 2nd/13th hand experiences where the child is "given back with a chuckle" and the lame "I was just entertaining/joking/whatever with your child" being mentioned. The other side of this is that I *try* and keep my little man within arm's reach at all times, and try and limit interaction with strangers by having (for want of a better word) control over him at all times - eg. having him in the kiddies seat of a shopping trolley which I have between myself or mom at all times, but as it would have it, I noted over the weekend that at one stage the trolley was one of the smaller "hand basket types", and I had carried him on my shoulders for a while, but with my gammy back, I had put him down to run alongside us. This is the opportune moment which potential evildoers will take advantage of, obviously.

By nature, I am a happy-go-lucky type who does not get my panties in a knot at the smallest infringement, but much like you mention, I am worried that that would be knife-edge between letting mundane shit slide, and me popping some random person full of 135gr +P Hornady's 0.002s too late and losing my child - tight rope :(

**Ds J** · 02-10-2017, 21:02

I have been playing multiple scenarios because I do not want to freeze or etc caught without plan.

Every time I get blocked by the question whether I may/must/should tackle/punch/kick/spray/stab/slash/shoot the offender.

Or maybe just making a scene with a loud voice whilst keeping a very open eye on the offender?

The way courts tend to view kidnappings make a huge difference.

**SLR** · 02-10-2017, 21:13

I cannot see how I would believe a kidnapping by a random stranger is not a direct threat to my child's life

**Pirate** · 02-10-2017, 21:15

Is it an attack on your child's person? Has the attack started, or is it imminent?

If the answers to the above is unclear, some firms words of a persuasive nature may be in order, after which the situation will most probably clear up to either of the two extremes.

**Ds J** · 02-10-2017, 21:35

Originally Posted by SLR

I cannot see how I would believe a kidnapping by a random stranger is not a direct threat to my child's life

Originally Posted by Pirate

Is it an attack on your child's person? Has the attack started, or is it imminent?

If the answers to the above is unclear, some firms words of a persuasive nature may be in order, after which the situation will most probably clear up to either of the two extremes.

It is not about WHETHER an attack is happening. It is about how to react lawfully to an (imminent) attack.

To exaggerate a little:

Shooting a dear old tannie full of holes for picking up my child because she misses her grandchild in Australia - no way.

But letting a criminal get away is not right either.

**P1LGR1M** · 02-10-2017, 21:41

Sjoe Dominee, jy vra n moeilike vraag vanaand.

I have often wondered about this same situation and what level of force I will use in such a situation. Any person that pulls a stunt like this with my two boys will have to explain themselves very quickly. Even if they try the"joke" angle, I will do my utmost to detain them and open a case. Let the police view the evidence and decide if it was a joke.

I think nowadays with every angle in every mall being covered by cameras you will have a stronger foot to stand on to proof your case.

Sent from my S60 using Tapatalk

**Ds J** · 02-10-2017, 22:02

I guess a lot will depend on the actions of the perpetrator. If he releases the child there is no threat anymore. Would shooting still be justified? If he starts running it changes the picture because his intent is definitely not surrender or something similar. He is then actively attacking my child. Lethal force - if I understand it correctly - is then justified.

This is where something like a tazer or pepper jel comes in quite handy - the perpetrator is not dead or injured but put out of action and the threat is dealt with in an effective and non-lethal way. Even if it happens to be an innocent person, he or she would think twice about touching a child again.

**Kayback** · 02-10-2017, 22:27

I have no compunction about drilling someone who grabs my child full of holes. There have been enough reports of children who go missing turning up dead for it to be a fairly reasonable expectation of an outcome.

If the person releases my kid before direct action can be applied then we can discuss their interest in my kid and possibly involve center security and the police.

My wife has experienced someone undoing the straps on the push chair while she was getting some milk from the fridges. The person backpedaled quickly when my wife turned back and challenged her, with some lame ass story.

I've almost drawn on my step-kids father who thought it would be funny to sneak on her and grab her from behind in a crowded mall. My hand was on my gun and I had already started yelling when I recognized him.

Even little old grannies have no right to invade the personal space of a child stranger. While that isn't a shooting offence I guess, it is a verbal challenge and possibly a hands on offence.

Trying to remove my child is a danger to my child's life and well being. Touching my child without my permission is assault. Old timers may not see it that way but it isn't 1950 any more either.