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  1. #21
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    Default Re: A good summary of "knockdown power"

    Quote Originally Posted by richardfloyd
    At last! I couldn't agree more. The fallacy that the bigger the bullet the better is nonsense. It stems from an american notion that the bigger the thing is the better. Like hummers and .45's. Unless you place it, it means nothing. A 9mm hollow point will do more damage than a .45. Its simple maths, the more energy transfered to the targets body the more damage! A .45 that wizzes through transfers less energy than a 9mm hollow that comes to a complete halt in the body of the target - FACT! Anyone who disagrees has not done grade 8 science.
    The link provided by Thorkind will allow access to excellent info.

    Energy does not wound. Handgun bullets wound by destroying tissue that they physically come into contact with.

    While a quality 9x19mm JHP will destroy more tissue than a non expanding .45 if that same jhp is one with insufficient penetration it would IMHO be a poorer choice. Also a .45 ACP will destroy a small amount more tissue than the equivalent 9x19 but the difference isn't huge. From a pure terminal performance point of view the best .45 JHPs are superior to the equivalent 9x19 this doesn't take into account things like controllability capacity etc.

    Once again all handgun bullets are a pretty shitty choice for stopping determined attackers and if you have the choice take some long guns

  2. #22
    Moderator camouflage762's Avatar
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    Default Re: A good summary of "knockdown power"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig....er....SICK T
    Quote Originally Posted by richardfloyd
    At last! I couldn't agree more. The fallacy that the bigger the bullet the better is nonsense. It stems from an american notion that the bigger the thing is the better. Like hummers and .45's. Unless you place it, it means nothing. A 9mm hollow point will do more damage than a .45. Its simple maths, the more energy transfered to the targets body the more damage! A .45 that wizzes through transfers less energy than a 9mm hollow that comes to a complete halt in the body of the target - FACT! Anyone who disagrees has not done grade 8 science.
    The link provided by Thorkind will allow access to excellent info.

    Energy does not wound. Handgun bullets wound by destroying tissue that they physically come into contact with.

    While a quality 9x19mm JHP will destroy more tissue than a non expanding .45 if that same jhp is one with insufficient penetration it would IMHO be a poorer choice. Also a .45 ACP will destroy a small amount more tissue than the equivalent 9x19 but the difference isn't huge. From a pure terminal performance point of view the best .45 JHPs are superior to the equivalent 9x19 this doesn't take into account things like controllability capacity etc.

    Once again all handgun bullets are a pretty shitty choice for stopping determined attackers and if you have the choice take some long guns
    Agreed. If handguns were any good why do we use rifles...
    As has been said on another thread, bullets & bad guys do not read books on terminal ballistics. :-\

    Recent studies show that 1 out of every 3 liberals are just as dumb as the other 2

  3. #23

    Default Re: A good summary of "knockdown power"

    i think majority of people have the bigger is better perception... i admit even i do

    but comparing apples to apples in this case apples to semi-apples, i want to know how the one round (9mm) is better than the .45
    lets assume they both hp's

    these are they only "similar" i had to compare

    pics are about 2mb...

    ok im not a bullet expect so you can say im a good eg of the avg bloke at a gun shop looking at the size and making a decision ito size...
    i want to know how the 9mm has more of a punch, IMHO just by looking at the .45 you can see it can expand to a greater size... meaning it can inflict more damage, bigger wound cavity etc compared to the 9mm





    now do you guys think comparing these fmj that the .45 has more?





    by comparing ballistic performance 9mm vs .45 i noted a slight variation ito velocity and energy (yet again im no expert so i stand to be corrected), again i think the transfer of energy from a 45 is greater than a 9mm - imo

  4. #24
    Moderator SSP's Avatar
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    Default Re: A good summary of "knockdown power"

    Quote Originally Posted by ror123
    again i think the transfer of energy from a 45 is greater than a 9mm - imo
    That would be great. If energy transfer caused wounding.

    Ill reiterate. You can have the largest freaking bullet in the world, if it does not reach vital structures it will not reliably incapacitate.

    Any difference in 9mm,45 or 40, insofar as terminal performance is concered is marginal, at best. At worst, utterly irrelevant.

    Stopping power, knockdown power, whatever you want to call it is a myth.

    For the love of all that is holy, if you have a copy of Street Stoppers, burn it.
    Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
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    the glory of the great dead.
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  5. #25

    Default Re: A good summary of "knockdown power"

    i'llm drink to that ssp hpy180

  6. #26
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    Default Re: A good summary of "knockdown power"

    Quote Originally Posted by SSP
    Quote Originally Posted by ror123
    again i think the transfer of energy from a 45 is greater than a 9mm - imo
    That would be great. If energy transfer caused wounding.

    Ill reiterate. You can have the largest freaking bullet in the world, if it does not reach vital structures it will not reliably incapacitate.

    Any difference in 9mm,45 or 40, insofar as terminal performance is concerned is marginal, at best. At worst, utterly irrelevant.

    Stopping power, knockdown power, whatever you want to call it is a myth.

    For the love of all that is holy, if you have a copy of Street Stoppers, burn it.
    Great points Batman ;D. The respected experts in the field have made it clear that energy is irrelevant.

    After reliability ,which is always Uber Alles, penetration is paramount. Everything else matters not if the bullet doesn't reach vital structures reliably from various angles.

    Once sufficient penetration has been achieved the greater the expanded diameter the better simply because the hole is bigger. To be honest though the difference between an expanded diameter of .60 and .70 is not earth shattering.

    Please please please before believing in energy transfer hydrastatic shock or any other " stopping power " myths do some research.

    PS anything by Marshall and Sanow is not research.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: A good summary of "knockdown power"

    well a big thank you to Thorkind for the usefull info. As a young gunner I continue to learn. and many of the arguments put forward are not uncommon "myths" out there. the mere fact that they're being stamped out based on facts is invaluable in our lovely land.

    all said and noted, I do not contest any of the facts stated by the pro's, but one of the reasons which I particular prefer larger calibre handguns is that in a life-and-death scenario, the target is a threat and is moving. in the event where i get hits, but they're not where i placed em, I wanna do maximum damage. i want the perp to fall, or at least lose focus and know he's been hit.

  8. #28
    Moderator camouflage762's Avatar
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    Default Re: A good summary of "knockdown power"

    Quote Originally Posted by just plain Big T
    For the love of all that is holy, if you have a copy of Street Stoppers, burn it.
    BIGT
    What "source" do u believe to be authoritative/good on this subject?
    Recent studies show that 1 out of every 3 liberals are just as dumb as the other 2

  9. #29
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    Default Re: A good summary of "knockdown power"

    Quote Originally Posted by camouflage762
    Quote Originally Posted by just plain Big T
    For the love of all that is holy, if you have a copy of Street Stoppers, burn it.
    BIGT
    What "source" do u believe to be authoritative/good on this subject?
    Anything by Drs. Gary Roberts or Martin Fackler.
    For a purely medical view of terminal ballistics: "Gunshot Wounds" by Vincent DiMaio

  10. #30
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    Default Re: A good summary of "knockdown power"

    Quote Originally Posted by DrDave
    Quote Originally Posted by camouflage762
    Quote Originally Posted by just plain Big T
    For the love of all that is holy, if you have a copy of Street Stoppers, burn it.
    BIGT
    What "source" do u believe to be authoritative/good on this subject?
    Anything by Drs. Gary Roberts or Martin Fackler.
    For a purely medical view of terminal ballistics: "Gunshot Wounds" by Vincent DiMaio
    What the good Doctor said.

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