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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Competency Validity

    My competency for HG/R/SG/HMG was issued in 2012, with no expiry date printed on the card.
    When I handed in license applications this week, I was told by the DFO that a competency expires after five years.
    They did allow me to fill in an application to renew my comp right away, and I could hand in the license applications.
    But strictly speaking, my comp has then already lapsed in 2017, so I missed the '90 days before expiry'..
    We will see what happens.

  2. #32

    Default Re: Competency Validity

    Your DFO is WRONG. So probably are you. When does your latest licence expire? Do some searching on Gunsite for the true story.

    Peter

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Competency Validity

    Let's try again.

    Quote Originally Posted by High Power View Post
    Firearms Control Act Section 10

    (2) A competency certificate contemplated in subsection (1)(a)(i), (ii), (iii) and (iv), remains valid for the same period of validity as the period determined in this Act in respect of the licence to which the competency certificate relates, unless the competency certificate is terminated or renewed in accordance with the provisions of this Act.
    (Section 10(2) substituted by section 9(b) of Act 28 of 2006 with effect from 10 January 2011)
    Competency certificates come with a start date and sometimes an end date. Together, these would establish a validity period. In the case of a blank end date, validity periods of 5 and 10 years have been used, though I don't recall what the Act actually states.

    Let's say that your competency certificate has a validity period from the 1st of January from 2010 to 2020.

    In 2019 you buy a firearm, and apply for a Section 15 license using your competency certificate, which is still valid at this point.

    Without any special wording, when your competency certificate expires on 1 January 2020, you are no longer considered competent for your new S15 firearm, and would need to hand it in, despite there still being ~9 years left on its license.

    Recognizing that this situation can occur, the Act:

    1. Grants an extension on the validity of your competency certificate to match the term of your S15 license ("remains valid for the same period ... as ... the licence")
    2. Limits the extension to apply to that S15 license only ("remains valid ... in respect of the licence")


    The wording is convoluted as it tries to convey multiple concepts in a single sentence, but this is the situation the Act is trying to explain.

    Of course, the CFR does not follow the Act so your experience will vary day to day, but that does not change what the Act is trying to say.

  4. #34

    Default Re: Competency Validity

    Quote Originally Posted by AshleyR View Post

    Without any special wording, when your competency certificate expires on 1 January 2020, you are no longer considered competent for your new S15 firearm, and would need to hand it in, despite there still being ~9 years left on its license.
    .

    Any expiry date printed on a competency certificate became irrelevant when the Act was amended as above. You will note that, to the best of my knowledge, later certificates do not carry an expiry date.

    Where does the Act say that a licence expires when/if your competency expires? You have to have valid competency to be granted a licence and to renew it, but in between you do not need a valid competency. Secondly, the same competency certificate applies to all of your licences. So every time you get a new licence the expiry date of your competency goes out another 5 or 10 years depending on which Section the new licence is under. I have just had two licences renewed and a few months ago new licences issued with a competency issued in 2006, so the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

    Peter

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Competency Validity

    Quote Originally Posted by High Power View Post
    You will note that, to the best of my knowledge, later certificates do not carry an expiry date.
    Indeed, I did note that in my previous post. This has left everyone in the dark as to when competency certificates actually expire now. Did the Act require the expiration date to be omitted, or did SAPS just unilaterally stop printing the expiration dates so that firearm owners get caught of the trap of not renewing their competency certificates 90 days before expiry, as required by the Act?


    Quote Originally Posted by High Power View Post
    Where does the Act say that a licence expires when/if your competency expires? You have to have valid competency to be granted a licence and to renew it, but in between you do not need a valid competency.
    Mea culpa, a brief search has not turned up anything in the Act that says what happens in that situation. But I believe we can agree that the Act, poorly written as it is, does not cover a lot of common situations.

    There is no rational explanation for changing Section 10, Subsection 2 from
    (2) A competency certificate lapses after five years from its date of issue.
    to
    (2) A competency certificate contemplated in subsection (1)(a)(i), (ii), (iii) and (iv), remains valid for the same period of validity as the period determined in this Act in respect of the licence to which the competency certificate relates, unless the competency certificate is terminated or renewed in accordance with the provisions of this Act.
    except to make provision for this exact "holds a valid license, but no valid competency" scenario.


    Quote Originally Posted by High Power View Post
    Secondly, the same competency certificate applies to all of your licences.
    Sure.


    Quote Originally Posted by High Power View Post
    So every time you get a new licence the expiry date of your competency goes out another 5 or 10 years depending on which Section the new licence is under.
    Except for that little phrase "in respect of". The certificate's validity is extended in respect of that new license. If that phrase was not there, I would agree with you, but it is there and it limits the scope of the extension to just that one license.


    Quote Originally Posted by High Power View Post
    I have just had two licences renewed and a few months ago new licences issued with a competency issued in 2006, so the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
    To assert that the way SAPS does things is in any way related to the correct interpretation and application of the Act defies belief.

    These people are not allies to firearm owners. They are not there creating loopholes for firearm owners in the Act. When they make things more vague or more difficult to understand, you can count on it being used against firearm owners with maximum prejudice when they feel like it. Just look at the expired license renewal situation as a single example of this.

    If they can mess up your day, assume they will and plan accordingly. In this particular case, renew your competency certificate after 5/10 years regardless. Though Section 10A of the Act, poorly written as it is, says you can only renew your competency certificate when renewing the firearm license at the same time, so who really knows... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


    Edit: Not sure why I felt the need to debate this. I guess all the above could be summarised with "The Act is poorly written, buyer beware and sterkte with your license applications".

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Competency Validity

    Your competency is valid for as long as your last license, this has been proved when my and many of us here were due for a renewal and only renewed the license and not the competency.... Unfortunately this may need some 'negotiation' on your part with the postmaster but that should be that.

    Just remember, list your comp expirey date as you latest license as it is that.

    Same with motivation, used the supplied 4 or so lines and state that your situation has not changed as per the previous motivation.

    Simple.

    If you only have 1 license in that category you're kinda fucked and need to do both or risk being screwed.

    Sent from my POT-LX1AF using Tapatalk

  7. #37

    Default Re: Competency Validity

    Quote Originally Posted by G33 View Post
    Your competency is valid for as long as your last license, this has been proved when my and many of us here were due for a renewal and only renewed the license and not the competency.... Unfortunately this may need some 'negotiation' on your part with the postmaster but that should be that.

    Just remember, list your comp expirey date as you latest license as it is that.

    Same with motivation, used the supplied 4 or so lines and state that your situation has not changed as per the previous motivation.

    Simple.

    If you only have 1 license in that category you're kinda fucked and need to do both or risk being screwed.

    Sent from my POT-LX1AF using Tapatalk
    Thank you! At last someone who understands. The same competency expiry also applies for new applications, not just renewals. Not sure what you meant by the postmaster. All of my new and renewals have gone through with no negotiations or questions.

    Peter

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Competency Validity

    Quote Originally Posted by High Power View Post
    Thank you! At last someone who understands. The same competency expiry also applies for new applications, not just renewals. Not sure what you meant by the postmaster. All of my new and renewals have gone through with no negotiations or questions.

    Peter
    The DFOs act like some Holly guardian of the the post, that's who needs convincing to post you application.... Hence postmaster.

    The only reason they require negotiation is purely not thier fault because like most of the LEOs they operate through and via directives which as we all know are not always as per the law.

    Sent from my POT-LX1AF using Tapatalk

  9. #39

    Default Re: Competency Validity

    Quote Originally Posted by G33 View Post
    they operate through and via directives which as we all know are not always as per the law. Sent from my POT-LX1AF using Tapatalk
    I would question whether they do actually work through directives. If they do then we could expect something like a common approach to things. My belief is that they do not get told what and how to do their work. Of course CFR should issue SOPs for all the standard tasks that they have.

    Peter

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Competency Validity

    Quote Originally Posted by High Power View Post
    I would question whether they do actually work through directives. If they do then we could expect something like a common approach to things. My belief is that they do not get told what and how to do their work. Of course CFR should issue SOPs for all the standard tasks that they have.

    Peter
    Open ended directives with little to no training mixed in with a health dose of broken telephone.

    Sent from my POT-LX1AF using Tapatalk

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