“Heavy bone and the 308” follow up on older threads.

[H.MINNAAR]

I was browsing some older threads where one of the experienced hunters on the forum said all his brother ever used was PMP 180gr brown box, it fairs well even when bone is encountered. Now I only shoot once I’m comfortable and at closer distances so honesty have little experience with heavy bone. So back to the question, the 180gr , lead core PMP or hornAdy interlock Bullet, at 308 velocities(2450fps), any one has experience when shoulder bone is encountered on animals like the blue wildebeest. Can it punch through To get to vitals at that moderate velocity?

[264WinMag]

Boss’s son shot a young bwb last year with 180gr ProAmm on the shoulder (knoppe), Bwb was quartering forward. Bullet penetrated fully and we found the lead core under the skin on the opposite side no copper jacket.

Not sure if the outcome would have been the same if it was a large bull

Bullet was loaded to 2450fps.


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[Proudprado]

I was present when a friend shot a Gemsbok through the shoulder last winter, with PMP ProAmm in 180g. Probably at around 120m. No problem.

[Messor]

Focus one second on bullet technology, bonded vs normal cup and core.
All a bonded bullet does is bond the jacket to the core, that’s it.

How much does the jacket weigh?
You will often find that people shoot something dead, and when the bullet is recovered they notice the jacket is gone, and call it a failure. Remember a bullet is a projectile that destroys tissue, nothing more. Even with jacket separation if the projectile destroys the vitals the job is done, bullet performed.

How many of you guys haven’t lately read about bonded bullets failing?
I have, several times, the bullet came apart, the bonded does nothing to prevent this because as the mantle sheers the lead that is bonded to it just goes with that piece of mantle. The faster people try and shoot stuff the more they need a harder bullet to keep up with the speed. Speed destroys just about everything, hence that is why many people shoot mono bullets, which are almost indestructible.

For example, normal cup and core, if you shoot a 180gr bullet in 308 you are fine, absolutely fine.
If you shoot it in a 30-06, at factory spec, you are looking for trouble.
If you shoot it in a 300WM, at factory spec, you are looking for real trouble.
And that is just remarkable, the bigger the cartridge the worse the performance, but forget not that is EXACTLY what happened in the world. Sales people chasing velocity and bullet manufacturers having to chase after them. I would be a rich man if I had R10 every time I read where someone shot an animal and the bullet came apart. Yet almost every time it was some person that shot the bullet too fast.

You know if you hunt in the bush, and ask a normal person why on earth he needs to shoot the bullet that fast, what would the most people say? He cannot say anything, he is following sales pitch, that is all.

Old heavy cup and core have always worked, and will keep on working when applied correctly, but in this day and age of everybody wanting a sniper rifle with chromed bullets I doubt they will exist indefinitely.

Anyways, on topic, last year I loaded some 180gr SST’s in my 308, very slow far below what I can push them at. Shot a couple of things including body shots on pigs, not one failure, two spine shots, imagine that, I must be imagining it, sales talk pitch cannot allow that to be true.

I want to end saying something funny, it’s remarkable how many people can be persuaded to change their equipment that have always worked for them, just because of the opinions of others. Think about it, this specific something works for you, now someone tells you it cannot work, and now you change that? It’s almost the very definition of insanity, but still there it is, humans are gullible things.

[Daniel55]

I have had great luck with 180gr, some brown box but more pro amm in my 308. It may not be the best choice for everything but I have yet to see it perform poorly if shot placement is correct. Yes, it has worked through heavy bone as well. I have resorted to this load and decided not to go premium for the bush. I practice and hunt with the same combo. That being said, if I am going to hunt Eland with my 308 I’d probably look at the A frame or Barnes.
Perhaps if I was in an open area and did more Hunting on the plains I’d use something else.
Honestly, I see myself sticking with the cup and core 180gr at 2450fps on the bush.

[SBB]

Shoulder shots don't necessarily mean the heavy joints and bones are always hit.

Smacking heavy bone regardless of bullet type can have very different results from total disintegration and non penetration to deflection.

Cup and core non bonded bullets perform better at lower velocities but there is never any guarantee on any bullet.

Pick something you can afford to practice a lot with and try not shoot the shoulder.

We as Professional Hunters have clients shoot a lot of big animals on the shoulder simply because it stops the animal running 100m off which can be a lengthy carry in certain terrain. Secondly we are not saving on meat so bruised and bloodied shoulder etc is of no concern.

[Pirate]

@SBB: I have "faith" in the "right-on-the-shoulder" shot for exactly the reason you give, namely that it puts the animal down very close to "right there". From a statistical sample of exactly 1 bigger animal (a blackWB bull) I have had the very interesting result that the meat damage with that shot was minimal, slightly larger than fist-sized around the area where the bullet hit. This was a bonded 150gr that hit the swb at about 2600fps right on the socket on one side, broke that, and penetrated right into the socket of the opposite shoulder, where it lodged. I fully believe that if it was a 180gr cup&core launched at 2450fps the damage would have been less, and penetration at least similar, if not better.

For smaller game, my 150gr bullets on shoulder shots generally did make some mess, but even then I find it acceptable, and preferable to having to follow up on an animal (with the chance of having to take a non-optimal shot that may make even a greater mess).

[SBB]

@SBB: I have "faith" in the "right-on-the-shoulder" shot for exactly the reason you give, namely that it puts the animal down very close to "right there". From a statistical sample of exactly 1 bigger animal (a blackWB bull) I have had the very interesting result that the meat damage with that shot was minimal, slightly larger than fist-sized around the area where the bullet hit. This was a bonded 150gr that hit the swb at about 2600fps right on the socket on one side, broke that, and penetrated right into the socket of the opposite shoulder, where it lodged. I fully believe that if it was a 180gr cup&core launched at 2450fps the damage would have been less, and penetration at least similar, if not better.

For smaller game, my 150gr bullets on shoulder shots generally did make some mess, but even then I find it acceptable, and preferable to having to follow up on an animal (with the chance of having to take a non-optimal shot that may make even a greater mess).

A lot of the time bone fragmentation causes more blood shot and bruised meat than the bullet....

So many variables.

We have evolved....most if not all hunting bullets used within their specs will perform. 6 of one...

[Daga Boy]

180gr cup n core bullet (preferably bonded) make a very good bush load in a .308. It easily takes a big BWB down , and there is very little meat damage regardless of the species or size of animal. As the bullet tends to stay intact the penetration is usually significantly better than with lighter projectiles at higher velocities.
For open country (min range 100m but mostly further) I prefer a relatively lightly constructed 150 or 165gr.