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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Company announced firearm policy - what now?

    Quote Originally Posted by wave.jaco View Post
    No other legal documents have been signed other than the employment contract.


    Giving management the benefit of the doubt, they are rather friendly, so it is possible that they will be reasonable about it if motivated properly. Just carrying on with the risk of being made is of course risky. But leaving the FA at home is by all means not an option. As per Zuku's comment, a car safe would be my absolute last bet.
    They do not need you to sign acceptance of the policy at all.
    Their premises, their rules.

    At least you mention they are friendly, which means you have a chance to discuss it with them openly.
    Our HR has a very irrational fear of guns, and all people who like guns, and have no desire to discuss it or learn.

    Chances are that someone complained about you carrying, which begs the question - why did anyone at the office know you carry in the first place?

    Like I said, good luck with this, I hope you can come to some agreement with them to allow you to carry.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Company announced firearm policy - what now?

    You can argue that a firearm isn't an "offensive weapon" but a defensive one instead. It's a shit policy. When my company introduced this (and gave me the paper to sign to confirm this), I scratched out the parts that prohibited me from the same, initialed next to it, got HR to do the same, signed it and submitted it. That was the last I ever heard of it.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Company announced firearm policy - what now?

    They are introducing a new company policy and consulting so if you don't object - this becomes policy. They are using the wrong angle to justify it too - OHSA. You have completed a competency test and are certified to carry the firearm. You can argue that this policy is unfair and a change in conditions of service, but they will just consult and demonstrate that they have applied their minds to your objections and go ahead anyway. If you are disciplined for carrying then it would be interesting for them to argue that the rule was fair and reasonable, especially if you have managed to motivate that your gun is needed for self defence and you work long hours and travel far etc etc when you licensed your gun. Added to this is that you have a competency certificate and ignorance, negligence or misuse are not likely as a result. The rule then seems unfair and/or unreasonable. If you are carrying S16 then this would be more difficult to argue though.

    If you are a valuable employee then talk to somebody high up and explain this position to them as an opening bargaining position and see if you can get a compromise. If you don't have any bargaining power then move on some time soon. There are enough good legal experts on this forum to give a better informed view on this though.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Company announced firearm policy - what now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gbyleveldt View Post
    I wonder; if you are the only one carrying and your company issued that statement, don’t you think one of your colleagues complained?

    If someone did complain, then you may very well have a difficult time ahead of you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kola View Post
    Chances are that someone complained about you carrying, which begs the question - why did anyone at the office know you carry in the first place?

    Like I said, good luck with this, I hope you can come to some agreement with them to allow you to carry.
    I use a Remora IWB holster with no belt clip and personally feel that I do a proper job concealing, to the extent that some other colleagues who actively participate in firearm related discussions didn't notice (otherwise they would've asked me). Furthermore, I was actually away from work for the entire last week, and this e-mail has only been sent out yesterday. So I think it has its roots somewhere else, particularly for the mentioning of ignorance, negligence and misuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Al View Post
    They are introducing a new company policy and consulting so if you don't object - this becomes policy. They are using the wrong angle to justify it too - OHSA. You have completed a competency test and are certified to carry the firearm. You can argue that this policy is unfair and a change in conditions of service, but they will just consult and demonstrate that they have applied their minds to your objections and go ahead anyway. If you are disciplined for carrying then it would be interesting for them to argue that the rule was fair and reasonable, especially if you have managed to motivate that your gun is needed for self defence and you work long hours and travel far etc etc when you licensed your gun. Added to this is that you have a competency certificate and ignorance, negligence or misuse are not likely as a result. The rule then seems unfair and/or unreasonable. If you are carrying S16 then this would be more difficult to argue though.

    If you are a valuable employee then talk to somebody high up and explain this position to them as an opening bargaining position and see if you can get a compromise. If you don't have any bargaining power then move on some time soon. There are enough good legal experts on this forum to give a better informed view on this though.
    I agree with you, particularly about the angle it seems to be approached from. You also make a very valid point regarding the competency and how ignorance, misuse and negligence is not really applicable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxxyc View Post
    You can argue that a firearm isn't an "offensive weapon" but a defensive one instead. It's a shit policy. When my company introduced this (and gave me the paper to sign to confirm this), I scratched out the parts that prohibited me from the same, initialed next to it, got HR to do the same, signed it and submitted it. That was the last I ever heard of it.
    Good point regarding the type of weapon. As Fat Al mentioned, in general it seems to be approached from the wrong angle. It would be most interesting to hear their opinion in the opposite context of personal safety and security as well as responsible firearm ownership.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Company announced firearm policy - what now?

    The issue is companies love to use the Occupational Health and Safety act as a cover. The act states that the employer is responsible to ensure the employees have a safe work environment hence the reference to negligent, etc FA users.

    Yet once you leave company property they are no longer responsible for your safety. So that can be one of your arguments why you carry and that they should at least be willing to install a place where you can safely store your FA whilst at work because you carry to keep yourself safe whilst traveling to and from work. (But most of the time management will just give you the cold shoulder on this topic)

    My company also have a no FA policy but I'll take my chances and keep on carrying.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Company announced firearm policy - what now?

    This is a silly policy. The problem is that many people don't realize it's silly because they feel that something positive is being done. Which is not the case.

    Do they realize posting gun free zone signs is making them a target for criminals. It's like saying "come rob this place, we are defenseless"
    A minimum wage armed security guard is not going to take a bullet for anyone. They are there for their pay and to get home to their families.
    A licensed firearm owner has been certified competent and has gone through background checks. Violent offenders can't Get firearms licenses. In short this means legal gun owners are good people.
    Every persons personal safety is their own responsibility. Administratively preventing people form being able to effectively secure their personal safety to and from the workplace may have some legal repercussions for the company. Make sure that they know that if they are effectively preventing you to travel with your gun (no storage/carry) they can be held liable if you are attacked in transit.

    A much better and much more practical way of managing their risk is to rater have a "no unauthorized weapons policy" This way they cover their asses and you can help them compile a authorization document. They actually want to make sure only legal firearms are on the premises.

    The only thing a all out gun free zone will do is make sure the law abiding people will not have guns. Criminals will be criminals and break the law/rules and ignore the gun free zone and do their evil deeds with confidence knowing there are no good armed people to stand in their way.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Company announced firearm policy - what now?

    Companies tend to shit themselves and issue new policies from time to time... the whole 'let's be seen to be doing somethings' kak.

    That said, last year we received our dangerous weapons policy.... I did note sign or receive training on anything so fuck that thought.

    Each to his own.

    Sent from my SpaceCraft using MindControl!

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Company announced firearm policy - what now?

    Thanks for your replies, ruaanfs & The Beast. You raise a few very important points regarding in addition to those already mentioned.

    I have written a confidential and positively-approached reply to management mentioning all the points mentioned thus far for discussion so that a consensus can be reached regarding this matter. So let's see what comes from that.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beast View Post
    Every persons personal safety is their own responsibility. Administratively preventing people form being able to effectively secure their personal safety to and from the workplace may have some legal repercussions for the company. Make sure that they know that if they are effectively preventing you to travel with your gun (no storage/carry) they can be held liable if you are attacked in transit
    I have been wondering about this for quite a while now. I totally agree in principle that there could be repercussions for the company if they essentially prevent you from taking the necessary steps to ensure your personal safety, since I feel that is an infringement of your human rights. However, since I am not a legal expert, I am not sure what law/right I can quote when it comes to supporting this point of view. Does anybody have any pointers to this?

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Company announced firearm policy - what now?

    Quote Originally Posted by wave.jaco View Post
    Thanks for your replies, ruaanfs & The Beast. You raise a few very important points regarding in addition to those already mentioned.

    I have written a confidential and positively-approached reply to management mentioning all the points mentioned thus far for discussion so that a consensus can be reached regarding this matter. So let's see what comes from that.


    I have been wondering about this for quite a while now. I totally agree in principle that there could be repercussions for the company if they essentially prevent you from taking the necessary steps to ensure your personal safety, since I feel that is an infringement of your human rights. However, since I am not a legal expert, I am not sure what law/right I can quote when it comes to supporting this point of view. Does anybody have any pointers to this?
    It is only reasonable to assume that if a company dictates what an employee can have available for personal security outside of their premises due to internal policies they should also be liable for the consequences of those policies.

    Thing is it would be necessary for you to be able to prove that you would have had a gun with you if it weren't for the policies. So letting the company know that their policy would prevent you form having a gun with you and that you will therefore hold them responsible for your safety when in transit. This could extend past just the commute to work and back to also include any length of travel that would include a stop at the workplace.

    I'm not a lawyer. This is how I would ague it. I have come to realise though that law and logic does not always stand on the same side of the fence. Use it do't use it.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Company announced firearm policy - what now?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beast View Post
    It is only reasonable to assume that if a company dictates what an employee can have available for personal security outside of their premises due to internal policies they should also be liable for the consequences of those policies.
    I would love to see a legal opinion on this.
    Technically their policy only applies to their premises, and they are not dictating what you are allowed to do outside their premises.

    Lets hope in this case they are reasonable, since in most such cases reason and logic play no role.

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