Breach loading shotgun...what is required?

[oafpatroll]

Not all of them. If your's does, you are just lucky.

It could also be true that you have been lucky . . . . so far.

[BBCT]

Most of them have been blow up way before phones with camera were invented: lack of recent photos means people have learned the lesson already. Repeating the same error isn't wise, you won't eat poisonous mushrooms either, even if you won't die every time. But here are some pictures of such an occurrence:







But you do what you do, not our problem

When I look at the overall condition of that particular shotgun, I personally wouldn't fire it with Nitro loads or BP loads. II can see visible gaps in the metalwork, which makes me wonder if it has been neglected. Any machinery will fail after decades of abuse. In another context, just look at Eskom & the current availability factor of their electricity generating machinery to see what happens when you neglect machinery. I'd also like to know a bit more about what nitro load (if indeed it was even a nitro load) was fired through it. If it was, for example a 35gram load then yes, I'm not in the least surprised it blew up given the condition. Was there a blockage or a significant dent in the barrel which would amount to a barrel obstruction? Was it chambered for 65mm rounds and was fired with 70mm ammo? That's a common cause of blowups because the older guns have a "step" at the end of the chamber and when the crimp opens up it can't open all the way and the wad gets forced through a hole that's too small. Old ammo has felt wads that were softer so they can be compressed more than modern rigid plastic wads and modern guns have a more gradual taper at the end of the chamber which leads to a more gradual pressure spike as the wad is forced through. I've looked at a few "modern" guns that I reckon would also blow up under those conditions. One of them was actually brand new unfired still in dealer stock - I think he accepted it from the supplier just out of morbid curiousity. I certainly wouldn't have been brave enough to fire it with anything. I could also post pictures of a Lanber over/under belonging to a cousin of mine that blew up using nitro loads but that doesn't prove that either Lanbers or over/unders and/or conventional steel barrels are prone to blowing up.

I was brought up to believe that you should never fire Nitro loads in a Damascus gun, but once I did a bit of research I realised that it is a vast oversimplification of the situation. There are plenty of Damascus barrelled guns built over a century ago that have passed Nitro Proof in the UK and are are still in regular use. Look through the Holts auction website for Damascus barrelled guns on auction and you'll find plenty that are in proof and can be safely used. They cannot be sold if they aren't in proof - UK rules are quite stringent about this. The main difference compared to the gun above is that they have been properly cared for.

If you have a Damascus barrelled gun in good condition (if you're unsure have it inspected by a gunsmith or other knowledgeable person THAT KNOWS ABOUT DAMASCUS BARRELLED SHOTGUNS - there aren't many of them) and go ahead and shoot it with sensible nitro loads. Read the article by Andrew Tonkin already referred to for some credible information. Ammo with Nitro Powder and felt wads is available, even here in SA. It is mostly also 65mm and is just fine to use in Damascus barrelled guns. In fact it is probably prudent to use it in normal steel barrelled guns that were made anything more than about 80 years ago anyway. I am quite picky about using it in a 20ga "fluid steel" barrelled gun I own that was built in the 1920's.

One of the British "Big Name" shotgun manufacturers - I think it's Purdey - currently offers a completely damascus gun, even the frame is damascus. Google it.

Yes, I also have a Damascus barrelled shotgun made in 1880-something that as far as I can tell belonged to my great-great-grandfather and I do use it with sensible nitro loads.

[High Power]

"Past Niro Proof" with a 120 or more year old gun is a farce. It just means that the gun didn't fail with one heavy proof charge. One fall arrest with an inadequate climbing rope is not a reccomendation to go on using it. Ever heard of metal fatigue?

Peter

[janfred]

To be fair, you can say that about any gun.

[High Power]

To be fair, you can say that about any gun.

True, and this is why I regard traditional proof testing as a hangover from Victorian times when they had nothing else. Non-destructive testing it is not. Note that the USA does not have mandatory proofing and we are all happy with their products, excluding a ludicrous 50 calibre pipe with a screw-on rear cap! The makers do plenty of testing, just as do the vehicle makers, but they do not do crash testing on every vehicle made.

However, this thread is about using modern powders to stress test Victorian products. If you read the period literature on proofing you will see that the main emphasis was on shotguns and their thin walled barrels. Anyone who wants to try their luck with nitro in a BP shotgun is welcome to do so, only don't stand near me when shooting!

Peter

[oafpatroll]

The US has vampire lawyers feeding on staggeringly punitive liability judgements. Only the truly stupid and/or suicidal would even consider putting out a firearm that was iffy ito inherent safety. The moron who blew a hole in himself with Serbu's screw cap breach .50 calibre pipe did it with lucky packet 'collector' SLAP rounds bought from some random fella on the interwebs that were quite likely stoked with pistol powder while in pursuit of views on yoochoob. He achieved the feat after noting inconsistencies in the report and recoil of rounds before the grenade went off.

Back to the shotguns, I'd be grateful if people would not make blanket statements that could lead the inexperienced and unwary to assuming that any guns made before the complete transition to nitro powders are safe with the same now. No doubt many are but especially in the case of pattern welded (damascus) steels it simply isn't prudent to say they all are. Pattern welded is just that. Every graduation of colour signifies the boundary between two dissimilar alloys. Who knows how many there are in the critical areas of a barrel but it must run to the thousands. Every single one is a potential point of catastrophic failure and after upwards of 100 years of use, abuse and corrosion the state of those boundaries is probably difficult to determine without vast expense.

[Trayton]

All this to be said then, most people responding do not subscribe to having a black powder shotgun nitro proofed by today's standards, would you all agree?

[oafpatroll]

All this to be said then, most people responding do not subscribe to having a black powder shotgun nitro proofed by today's standards, would you all agree?

I don't know how or where one would get that done in SA but I certainly wouldn't try. If i was lucky enough to have a BP gun in good shape that I wanted to shoot I'd load it to spec with BP and enjoy the full fat experience.

[Sean KZN]

There have been a lot of articles written fore and against, I'm not into shotguns at the moment so don't really follow other than an article here and there. I may have a Magnum article in my stash.
But my takeaway from this is that if it goes, it seems to be either under the supporting hand or above it, either of which could get complicated very quickly. I've seen a wrist wound from a hot Lmg barrel that detonated above the ejection port, he had to be airlifted back to somewhere, never saw him again but it had the medic rather frantic.

I wonder how much tin a magnetic particle test would cost, that's pretty straight foreward.