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Thread: Kill time

  1. #1
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    Default Kill time

    So I have a few sources on this, but not enough to put me at ease. Anyone willing to provide an average time taken for an animal to expire from various hits? I know there are many variables, just a general time would be great.

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    Default Re: Kill time

    I am no doctor but from what i have observed is the appearance of instantaneous death is only created by damage to the brain,high spinal cord or multiple simultaneous wounds inflicted by shotgun pellets which seem to 'overload' the central nervous system.

    You say you have a few sources on this but not enough to put you at ease? May i then assume that you are anti hunting to a smaller or larger extent? It worries you that animals may be having to endure a lot of suffering before death?

    Ok,fair enough,the question is pretty reasonable. Besides the above 3 scenarios that i mentioned,there are also the 'bang...flop' scenarios where the animal drops on the spot and dies. Death is measured here in seconds and there may or may not be a couple of seconds of head or limb movement which look more uncontrolled than a deliberate thought out movement.

    We then get the animals that take off running at the shot and some off these animals look totally un-hurt. This 'death rush' happens with even a well placed shot that damages heart and or one or both lungs. This rush could take the animal anywhere from 5-300m before the animal collapses or stops briefly,lies down and dies.This could take up to a couple of minutes or so.

    Then there is wounding caused by a badly placed shot in which the animal could take a week to die.Noboddy wants this.This is an absolute worst case scenario and is why so much emphasis is placed on shooting practice,ethics and so on.

    All i can say is that any game animal born that is not shot or killed quickly by a large predator is going to suffer a long lingering death,mostly from starvation which is a process of the animal gradually getting weaker and weaker untill it dies in a cold snap,gets eaten alive by small predators or,as i say,dies of hunger.

    Nature,anyway you look at it is brutal.

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    Default Re: Kill time

    Firstly, really appreciate the reply, thank you!

    I'm not anti at all, I've been hunting for more than a decade, but I do worry about suffering. To give you an idea, I only farm with livestock I won't have to kill (dairy, in other words) with the exception of fowl. I've also settled on neck shots where possible due to the reduction in suffering. My first hunt (I was 10) ended in a springbok doing, as you so wonderfully put it, a "bang...flop". It had a big impact on me.

    I enjoy the act of hunting, therefore I have been considering bow hunting (walk and stalk), to increase the challenge. I also feel that the low noise is less distressing to the game, but that is simply conjecture. I don't, however, enjoy killing. There's a quote taken from quite a great speech that goes "I don't hunt to kill, I kill to have hunted", this sums up my outlook on hunting.

    I have a fair amount of ignorance regarding bowhunting, having only been along on a few, so I would rather ask those in the know. I guess my main question is, given a double lounge shot with all other things being equal, will a broadhead wound result in a slower kill than that of a bullet?

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    Default Re: Kill time

    You will not get a bang flop with a bow unless you hit the central nervous system and you should not try head and spine shots with a bow. Broad heads cut a large wound channel with massive bleeding from lung and heart shots but expect animals to cover a fair distance before going down.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Kill time

    From what I have seen is a gunshot much faster and, with the correct shot placement, almost instant death with only nervous system making the animal twitch for a short while. You won't get this from an arrow shot. From what I have seen it is a much longer process.
    Good luck working it out in your head and heart. I think every hunter and nature lover struggles with this in a way.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: Kill time

    Southpaw,i think all hunters,or at least all of them who have a streak of humanity,have asked themselves the same question to a lessor or greater extent.This again,is why most of us strive to use the correct caliber and correct bullet for the species to be hunted.

    Let me now say what i think,this is only my opinion and comes from a limited exposure to bow hunting kills....certainly less than 20 animals. Any bow hunters out there ,please take me to task if i have offended or am incorrect in my observations.

    First of all is the sitting in a blind at a water hole and killing a chosen animal that comes in to drink.In some cases for eg.a kudu bull of 52 inches has been identified on a trail cam as coming in to drink at 3pm.The 'hunter' is dropped off at 2.30 and the hunt is over by 3.15.This to me is not hunting. Anyway,it is not what you asked.

    Killing an animal with an arrow results in the animal bleeding to death. Where the arrow is placed depends on the speed of the bleeding and thus the lengh of time it takes the animal to die. The blades of the arrow cause a wound channel which is completelt different to that caused by a high speed expanding bullet.All that the blades do is cut everything in their path,and it is the cutting of a heart chamber,or arteries that lead to death by blood loss.Even a double lung shot will cause the animal to bleed to death or litterally drown with its lungs filling with blood.

    While the animal is bleeding to death,it is also running,covering distance. This will almost allways result in a tracking session to find a shot animal.
    Time taken to die....certainly a lot longer than with rifle hunting.
    How much does the animal suffer? I do not know. Certainly they do not have the advanced central nervous system of a human being.Maybe they do not feel pain in the way we do.

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    Default Re: Kill time

    Pre 64, as a matter of interest why would a lung shot from a rifle kill an animal faster than a lung shot from a bow? Even a heart shot for that matter?

    If the bullet "explodes" within the body cavity and decimates all internal organs I can understand that but I haven't seen that from the PMP Proamm I've used.

    As for the OP post, I can't add value there, apology for the slight hijack. Having watched the American bow hunting shows, they seem to wait a min of 20 minutes but up to an hour before following the blood trail.

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    Default Re: Kill time

    I agree with Pre64 sentiments on bow hunting and hides. It doesn't make me "right" its just my preference. I have spent many many many outings with my bow, but I have not shot many animals with my bow...but the ones I have shot have been experiences to "cherish". It may come across as odd but I have more of a sense of pride and accomplishment at having stalked to a warthog 15m away than dropping an animal with rifle from 150m(which I also enjoy).

    From my limited experience all the animals I have shot with a bow run, but they bleed out quickly if placement is right.

    Back to the topic of Kill time, I am reminded of the one short clip in Kevin Robertsons "The Perfect Shot" where he explains why some animals who are shot in the heart drop instantly and others run for a couple hundred metres. He uses 2 plastic bottles to show what happens. One is completely full and the other just has enough water in the bottom to keep it stable. Then both are shot in the middle. The one that is full explodes while the bullet passes right through the "empty" bottle without much fanfare. He suggest that depending on where in the pump cycle the animals heart is when the bullet strikes, it will have an impact on the level of damage. So a heart full of blood will have more trauma than if not, assuming the same shot....or at least thats how I remembered it.

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    Default Re: Kill time

    I have hunted with rifle, and with bow and arrow for many years, and have taken quite a few animals with both.

    Rifle kills are quicker (is shot placement is good) compared to similar shots with bow and arrow. typical bow kills will take 15-40seconds, in which the animal can travel anything from a couple of meters, to a couple hundred meters. Broadheads are designed to have a large cutting cross section, and if sufficiently sharp, will result in massive blood loss in a VERY SHORT time. If shot placement is good, blood loss will result in heart failure in a few seconds, however, the brain remains active a little longer, and along with adrenalin, the animal will keep moving although technically already dead. Medical experts will tell you that a very clean cut bleeds more for longer, than a jagged cut or tear, and the veins and arteries are more difficult to cauterize if clean cut. Thus a sharp broadhead deliverd with well placed shot WILL result in a quick and humane kill.

    Hunting bullets, on the other hand is designed to expand rapidly, and creating 2 symptoms. Firstly an expanding bullet created a large wound channel, which destroys tissue... it also created an even larger temporary would channel, which creates hydrostatic shock. the permanent wound channel is easy to understand. a hard object flying trough a soft material at speed created a hole. this causes bleeding, and tissue/muscle damage. The temporary wound channel is 3 or more time larger than the permanent channel. in high speed videos, it can be seen to appear almost like an explosion of the tissue. one of the effect is created is that it pushes AGAINST the blood in the vessels, forcing it away from the bullet wound. this causes extreme backwards pressure in the heart and brain of the animal. the back pressure in the heart often results in cardiac arrest, or completely burst the heart. ideally the hunter would want to hit either the heart or lungs, thus maximizing the effectiveness of this phenomenon. of course, a heart with a massive hole does not work, not does lungs, but they also both result in massive blood loss. again, a very quick and humane kill. there are plenty of videos on the internet showing what I am talking about.

    Rest assured that if the hunter does his duty, and ensured good shot placement, with a good quality bullet and sufficient calibre for the animal hunted, he will have a quick and humane kill.

    but, there lies the problem.. humans are arrogant and full of pride, and will often attempt to do stuff for the bragging right. or they will over estimate their own skill and ability, and take shots that are too long, or otherwise border line. sometimes it works, often it does not...

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Kill time

    Southpaw, I found this a good question. I have hunted for the last 15 years and to this day I'm not fond of killing things. When I do hunt, I take great care to try an minimize the time from when the shot hits until the animal expires (shot placement, distances that I am comfortable with and the right caliber for the job). I posed this question to the gf which is vet . The short of it,

    *Hit the heart, a couple of beats and the brain would not get blood and the lack of oxygen would cause the animal to pass out. This will all happen very very quickly and is the best case scenario.
    *Hit the middle of the lungs (best case scenario for lungs), you burst the maximum amount of capillaries in lungs and the lungs fill up with blood, this happens fairly quickly though, but exact timing is near impossible to estimate due to variable damage caused. If you were to hit the back of the lung for example, the same effect but much much slower.
    *Spine is tricky, as where you hit determines everything. you could merely paralyze the animal or you could hit a part that controls respiratory function and it would stop breathing and pass out very quickly.

    Hope it helps.

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