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  1. #1
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    Default Thumbs Forward, High Grip... The Perfect Grip?

    I think we all agree universally that you want to get as high on the gun as possible, and have your thumbs forward (well there are some still stuck in the stone age that think a teacup is the right way to go).

    So in the last year or so, i haven't had much time to shoot, going from shooting at least twice a week, down to once or twice a month has me noticing some things about my grip.

    Those that know me, and have shot with me can attest that I have what appears to be a fairly good foundation in terms of my grip, as high as possible, thumbs forward etc at a quick glance it appears my grip is solid.

    Which brings me back to not shooting much, which means when I do shoot I have had to focus much more on the actual fundamentals. I noticed my front sight jumping about fairly badly. not my usual tracking up and down then back to "zero"or point of aim. No matter the gun sights would jump up and to the right (i'm a left handed shooter, and I would have to muscle it down again.

    So it got me looking at quite a few of the top shooters in the world, and just read Brian Enos forums, and listening to what they have to say about the grip.

    What actually peaked my interest is actually just how differently most of them think in terms of the grip.

    For instance Bob Vogel, is a firm believer in tourquing your hands into the grip with the palms, and especially weak hand he uses loads of pressure on the upper palm near the thumb that many have commented when using a similar grip they feel their lower palm not being able to apply enough pressure to grip near the centre of their palm.

    Frank Proctor is on the other end of the spectrum in his belief of only holding the firearm as hard as you need to, and is fairly unique his arm position.

    Brian Enos has his own thoughts, while Frank Proctor believes you should use your support hand thumb with pressure to mitigate movement. Brian Enos believes you should strive to no apply any pressure with your support hand thumb as leverage can cause you to, torque your hand away from the grip area where its most needed, as well as cause you to move the muzzle under recoil.

    Jerry Miculek has a similar thought regarding your support hand thumb. He then throws you a curve ball in saying how it's beneficial to wrap your fingers on the trigger guard especially on lighter guns. Something which most other top shooters now days say is a big no no, as you are prone to pulling the muzzle down. Heck Lena Miculek has even started shooting with two fingers on the trigger guard...


    I find it highly fascinating that of all the top shooters in the world they are doing most things regarding grip differently to one another, but at the same time they are also doing a lot of things the same.

    The one thing that really sticks out to me is an extension of their grip, their arm position. To some degree or other they all shoot with bent elbows, and aren't locking out. Which is a revelation to my grip (more on that later).

    It got me doing more reading, and going even further down the rabbit hole. With the myriad of ideas, thoughts & theories. There are guys who speak of gripping a firearm using your chest (think doing a chest fly in the gym), to everything in between.


    So at the end of all this, what I found it means to my grip and of course shooting is I managed to identify the inefficiencies in my grip / stance.

    - In trying to get a high support hand grip on the gun, I now over extend my hand and in turn my arms (which have locked out elbows). The first thing I started to work on is not locking my elbows and maintaining a slight bend, which then made me realize just how little support hand grip pressure I was exerting on the gun as locking my elbows out and extending had the effect of reducing the pressure I was able to exert on the gun, the only place i was placing pressure was towards the bottom of my palm towards the bottom of the grip.

    Oddly enough, with these two changes my support hand has started riding higher up the gun, and most of all applying pressure where it is needed.

    My muzzle control feels like it is getting back where it was, and I believe it will only improve with more practice. Now to remember to do this at matches, and not go into tactical turtle, stiff armed mode all because... pew pew.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Thumbs Forward, High Grip... The Perfect Grip?

    it may be weird but i seem to index my left trigger finger against the frame, ive had to go as afar as grip tape extension past the factory stippiling (p07)

    i have big mitts, like bunch of banana, green giant, king kong things on the ends of my wrists

    I'm not israelie special forces or seal team six though:(

    def gonna give what you experienced a go!

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Thumbs Forward, High Grip... The Perfect Grip?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevin View Post
    I think we all agree universally that you want to get as high on the gun as possible, and have your thumbs forward (well there are some still stuck in the stone age that think a teacup is the right way to go).

    So in the last year or so, i haven't had much time to shoot, going from shooting at least twice a week, down to once or twice a month has me noticing some things about my grip.

    Those that know me, and have shot with me can attest that I have what appears to be a fairly good foundation in terms of my grip, as high as possible, thumbs forward etc at a quick glance it appears my grip is solid.

    Which brings me back to not shooting much, which means when I do shoot I have had to focus much more on the actual fundamentals. I noticed my front sight jumping about fairly badly. not my usual tracking up and down then back to "zero"or point of aim. No matter the gun sights would jump up and to the right (i'm a left handed shooter, and I would have to muscle it down again.

    So it got me looking at quite a few of the top shooters in the world, and just read Brian Enos forums, and listening to what they have to say about the grip.

    What actually peaked my interest is actually just how differently most of them think in terms of the grip.

    For instance Bob Vogel, is a firm believer in tourquing your hands into the grip with the palms, and especially weak hand he uses loads of pressure on the upper palm near the thumb that many have commented when using a similar grip they feel their lower palm not being able to apply enough pressure to grip near the centre of their palm.

    Frank Proctor is on the other end of the spectrum in his belief of only holding the firearm as hard as you need to, and is fairly unique his arm position.

    Brian Enos has his own thoughts, while Frank Proctor believes you should use your support hand thumb with pressure to mitigate movement. Brian Enos believes you should strive to no apply any pressure with your support hand thumb as leverage can cause you to, torque your hand away from the grip area where its most needed, as well as cause you to move the muzzle under recoil.

    Jerry Miculek has a similar thought regarding your support hand thumb. He then throws you a curve ball in saying how it's beneficial to wrap your fingers on the trigger guard especially on lighter guns. Something which most other top shooters now days say is a big no no, as you are prone to pulling the muzzle down. Heck Lena Miculek has even started shooting with two fingers on the trigger guard...


    I find it highly fascinating that of all the top shooters in the world they are doing most things regarding grip differently to one another, but at the same time they are also doing a lot of things the same.

    The one thing that really sticks out to me is an extension of their grip, their arm position. To some degree or other they all shoot with bent elbows, and aren't locking out. Which is a revelation to my grip (more on that later).

    It got me doing more reading, and going even further down the rabbit hole. With the myriad of ideas, thoughts & theories. There are guys who speak of gripping a firearm using your chest (think doing a chest fly in the gym), to everything in between.


    So at the end of all this, what I found it means to my grip and of course shooting is I managed to identify the inefficiencies in my grip / stance.

    - In trying to get a high support hand grip on the gun, I now over extend my hand and in turn my arms (which have locked out elbows). The first thing I started to work on is not locking my elbows and maintaining a slight bend, which then made me realize just how little support hand grip pressure I was exerting on the gun as locking my elbows out and extending had the effect of reducing the pressure I was able to exert on the gun, the only place i was placing pressure was towards the bottom of my palm towards the bottom of the grip.

    Oddly enough, with these two changes my support hand has started riding higher up the gun, and most of all applying pressure where it is needed.

    My muzzle control feels like it is getting back where it was, and I believe it will only improve with more practice. Now to remember to do this at matches, and not go into tactical turtle, stiff armed mode all because... pew pew.
    I have experienced a very similar issue. Albeit for different reasons.

    I also have an almost tortoise neck thing going where my neck crouches down low.

    This pick I have better form having my elbows almost like a bow.



    But then as I carry on shooting I default back to the locked elbows.



    My goal was more aimed at better body position in terms of bringing the gun up to my eyes instead of crouching my neck to get lower to the sights. Your post has highlighted other elements involved with it. Especially the support hand grip position and the effect on recoil.

    I have been very attentive to my grip position, and your description actually gave me a lot of info.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Thumbs Forward, High Grip... The Perfect Grip?

    lol i meant thumb

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Thumbs Forward, High Grip... The Perfect Grip?

    I would agree that a good grip can improve your performance a lot. It did for me. But then I must add that I'm a multi-discipline shooter and use a variety of different handguns, each of them with a different requirement. The challenge is to find a grip that suits all of these handguns, and that includes revolvers. A finger-forward grip is definite no-no on a 357 or 44 Mag revolver, the blast from the barrel/cylinder gap tends to teach you that lesson very soon. Different requirement may very well dictate a different grip and stance.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Thumbs Forward, High Grip... The Perfect Grip?

    Yeah, I'm a sucker for understanding why things are or work they way they do. Which is what lead me to analyzing so many videos and grip principals of the top shooters over the years.

    Another thing they all seem to agree one which I omitted was locking out your support hand wrist. I first real description I ever heard of it was from Travis Haley, where he states you shold have your support hand at an almost 45 deg angle to your fore arm, with your thumb running forward.

    I think where I got that concept wrong is that instead of using that angle, and then forming a grip over time I formed a grip and then created that angle.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Thumbs Forward, High Grip... The Perfect Grip?

    A few weeks back I reworked my grip ahead of a competition. Moved the support hand further forward and slightly up which stopped me placing the support index finger on the trigger guard. This also forced my support arm slightly straighter. To be honest, I don't think I managed to get the grip 100% like I wanted during the competition (difficult to remember how it was in the heat of the moment). However I was amazed at the reduction in my time - reduced the overall time by nearly 20% over the previous two steel challenges.

    The new time was at where I know I should be shooting, but I had struggled to be consistent. I do think the new grip made a significant difference.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Thumbs Forward, High Grip... The Perfect Grip?

    This just confirm what I see on the SADPA events. I am just an average Sharp Shooter. At my club we have good attentive SO's and also some real fine Expert competitors. All of them always helping and encouraging, but on the perfect grip, they have no consensus. The basics are certainly the same for all, but when looking with attention there are some huge differences, but they all post good scores. So I have copied different approaches on different stages and see how my shooting improves or not, and came to realize that the perfect grip is the one that gets the best accuracy from yourself, but you will only know when trying out and finding the best approach for yourself.

    Myself grip with both thumbs forward, left thumb (weak hand) pressing lightly to the frame (shooting a G19 with small hands) on the area where the dent for the slide lock is and also left index finger with a forward hold on the trigger guard. I don't shoot with locked elbows. It seems that locked elbows extend body movement to the gun. Bent elbows are my "leveling" devices or shock absorbers.

    Experimenting and practicing what you do and also do it slowly and with another person checking what you do or making a video to study later seems the way to go rather than copying an expert shooters grip.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Thumbs Forward, High Grip... The Perfect Grip?

    I learned the hard way the other day that "thumbs forward, high grip" means nothing if you don't actually shoot like that - a lot. It may feel lekker, but if you squeeze your thumbs (admittedly from shooting nowhere near enough the last while) instead of relaxing them, you'll press the slide release button that you use to field strip the gun while the gun is in the cycle action, meaning it'll lock up with the slide 5mm to the rear, unable to shoot and you looking like an idiot trying to tap-rack that issue (which obviously doesn't work).

    Good grip, yes, but nothing beats proper range time.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Thumbs Forward, High Grip... The Perfect Grip?

    I’ve learnt to not dry fire cheap kids toy guns, as they invariably break as soon as I extend my arms and get a decent grip on the gun.
    Sent electronically, thus not signed.

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