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  1. #21

    Default Re: Man with paintball gun in Sea Point surrounded and kicked

    @messor seen too many of that being said here. Thanks for summing it up nicely.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Man with paintball gun in Sea Point surrounded and kicked

    Messor,
    You touch on 2nd amendment and government disarmament and you blame the forum for advice we selectively follow. But unfortunately you miss the point of the advice given on the forum on all incidents and the advice pertinent to this situation (2A has no bearing on this). Since every single scenario is different and require different tactics most of the advice on the forum is basic guidelines that should be followed and applied using good judgement.

    "but immediately it was his fault, With words like perhaps I hardly see this as him being blamed. I merely raised this as something to consider.

    Yes we have to pick our public fights. Case in point a firearm would most probably have lead to escalation and bad press for FA owners. With a good likelihood of a fat legal bill.
    "only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. "Clear cut scenario example is you are in a shopping mall and the Kenyan situation unfold. Since none of these had guns it hardly applies

    You also forget to mention that an armed citizen do not have the same statutory rights as a SAPS or other LEO. Hence in a somewhat messed up democratic society they are still the go to people to resolve public violence and intervene in armed situations. And yes we do have great officers out there. But even they can get it wrong as in the Marikana case.

    Thanks for the lecture, now please explain to us how you would have solved the situation without the SAPS assisting? And another one the recent chaos after FNB stadium Global "whatever" concert. BTW a very clear indication that we cannot blindly trust Government or SAPS for our own safety.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Man with paintball gun in Sea Point surrounded and kicked

    What would happen if you were walking buy, and did not know the situation and all you saw was a mob of people kicking a guy who is allready down on the ground (one of the guys also had a hammer in his hand) and you shot one of them (before SAPS started to assist)? The attack is unlawful, the attack is imminent and there is a serious threat to the person's life.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Man with paintball gun in Sea Point surrounded and kicked

    Quote Originally Posted by Yellowfever View Post
    Thanks for the lecture
    Lecture you, no, I did not lecture, I rather value your insights, I was referring to how firearm owners participate in public debate when it suits their narrative, I am sure you know what I spoke of.

    But, If you want me to explain it from my point of view, sure.

    In my little time on earth I have come from a place where everybody helped everybody, and where people stood up when needed, to a place where nobody helps anybody, turning a blind eye is the rule and giving a crap belongs in the past. There must be a very complex system that forces society into that direction but most importantly we’ve already had the shift. And this is not a shift in behaviour, it’s also a shift in thinking.

    More often than not it’s the older generation that will get up and do something, the younger generation will shy away from confrontation because that is how they were taught. The concept itself is remarkably simple, those that come to do you harm have no problem with physical violence, and those they target have been forced to not be exposed to physical violence. Even our governments tell us with their “experts”, don’t fight back, but they don’t tell you how the scenario will be mended. We also spend most of our time arguing that the less of a hold the government have on the people, the better the people are, yet we expect the government to save us once trouble arises, enter the police. Our own government doesn’t give jack shit about the people dying, they only care about controlling the people, milking them like cows. The latest development on how they seek to disarm civilians is straight forward evidence of that.

    So now you come to the topic at hand, when conflicts arises whom must stand up to resolve it?
    Call the police, and how long will they take to get there, or better yet, even if they get there what do they do about the scenario, nothing, just like in this case. The best thing you can do when phoning the police is to tell them you started shooting on a group of protestors, they will be there in a flash.
    But jokes aside bad things doesn’t only happen in your house, meaning it’s not a case of you having to defend yourself. Bad things happens everywhere, and when they do happen in public whom is it that must resolve it? Surely it cannot be the police, police cannot be everywhere they are needed. So does this imply that the public must do nothing, sacrifice the people in danger and wait for the police to do their job? Nah, I think we all know that in any free country civilians will need to act to these scenarios. Do we have that, no, look at the video people standing in close proximity just watching.

    Now firearms, rule of thumb is when you have a firearm then you must really try and stay out of situations, why again, aren’t most people not killed with firearm, aren’t they killed with sharp objects? It amuses me when we say that you must act differently because you carry, that somehow your actions will differ, or your contribution to the problem will be less affective, or worse that you will escalate the problem. Now when intervening in scenarios does that puts you in harms way, sure, does innocent people die, sure, that have always been the case throughout history, but then it’s a history we survived, acts of bravery is the wrong term, acts of citizenship have always cost lives yet the society it creates is one worth living in. At our previous office I once dragged a person getting beaten up by the mob into our parking, took a few punches for my trouble, and instantly regretted it when they told me that the man was a thief that just stole their money. Called the police and when the police came the truth came out, the man drew the money(even had a slip), they stole the money from him, and he then confronted them with a knife and got beaten up for trying to take his money back.

    People will always get hurt when trying to do the rights things, that sucks, but the truth is the lack of action creates a society that hurts a lot more people. Or let met rather put it this way, the society we live in is created by both our direct action, or the lack thereof. People must decide what is more important to them, looking the other way because they want to go home to their families, or creating a society that puts their family at risk every day and nobody will help them if it does.

    So again no, I am not lecturing, people must do what they think best, I just know what type of world I want to live in, the easy road doesn’t always lead to a place you like.
    "It's not the dying part that scares me, it's the not living."

  5. #25

    Default Re: Man with paintball gun in Sea Point surrounded and kicked

    I am with Messor 100% here and I certainly cannot stomach people watching these kind of things go down only to turn a blind eye or point fingers or look for a reason to justify why it happened the way it did.

    And for goodness sake people must stop playing the race card as and when it suits themselves, their version or their arguments or in certain instances stop using it to justify their views when referring to or being in a certain situation.

  6. #26

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Messor View Post
    Lecture you, no, I did not lecture, I rather value your insights, I was referring to how firearm owners participate in public debate when it suits their narrative, I am sure you know what I spoke of.

    But, If you want me to explain it from my point of view, sure.

    In my little time on earth I have come from a place where everybody helped everybody, and where people stood up when needed, to a place where nobody helps anybody, turning a blind eye is the rule and giving a crap belongs in the past. There must be a very complex system that forces society into that direction but most importantly we’ve already had the shift. And this is not a shift in behaviour, it’s also a shift in thinking.

    More often than not it’s the older generation that will get up and do something, the younger generation will shy away from confrontation because that is how they were taught. The concept itself is remarkably simple, those that come to do you harm have no problem with physical violence, and those they target have been forced to not be exposed to physical violence. Even our governments tell us with their “experts”, don’t fight back, but they don’t tell you how the scenario will be mended. We also spend most of our time arguing that the less of a hold the government have on the people, the better the people are, yet we expect the government to save us once trouble arises, enter the police. Our own government doesn’t give jack shit about the people dying, they only care about controlling the people, milking them like cows. The latest development on how they seek to disarm civilians is straight forward evidence of that.

    So now you come to the topic at hand, when conflicts arises whom must stand up to resolve it?
    Call the police, and how long will they take to get there, or better yet, even if they get there what do they do about the scenario, nothing, just like in this case. The best thing you can do when phoning the police is to tell them you started shooting on a group of protestors, they will be there in a flash.
    But jokes aside bad things doesn’t only happen in your house, meaning it’s not a case of you having to defend yourself. Bad things happens everywhere, and when they do happen in public whom is it that must resolve it? Surely it cannot be the police, police cannot be everywhere they are needed. So does this imply that the public must do nothing, sacrifice the people in danger and wait for the police to do their job? Nah, I think we all know that in any free country civilians will need to act to these scenarios. Do we have that, no, look at the video people standing in close proximity just watching.

    Now firearms, rule of thumb is when you have a firearm then you must really try and stay out of situations, why again, aren’t most people not killed with firearm, aren’t they killed with sharp objects? It amuses me when we say that you must act differently because you carry, that somehow your actions will differ, or your contribution to the problem will be less affective, or worse that you will escalate the problem. Now when intervening in scenarios does that puts you in harms way, sure, does innocent people die, sure, that have always been the case throughout history, but then it’s a history we survived, acts of bravery is the wrong term, acts of citizenship have always cost lives yet the society it creates is one worth living in. At our previous office I once dragged a person getting beaten up by the mob into our parking, took a few punches for my trouble, and instantly regretted it when they told me that the man was a thief that just stole their money. Called the police and when the police came the truth came out, the man drew the money(even had a slip), they stole the money from him, and he then confronted them with a knife and got beaten up for trying to take his money back.

    People will always get hurt when trying to do the rights things, that sucks, but the truth is the lack of action creates a society that hurts a lot more people. Or let met rather put it this way, the society we live in is created by both our direct action, or the lack thereof. People must decide what is more important to them, looking the other way because they want to go home to their families, or creating a society that puts their family at risk every day and nobody will help them if it does.

    So again no, I am not lecturing, people must do what they think best, I just know what type of world I want to live in, the easy road doesn’t always lead to a place you like.
    What an excellent comment! In my even lesser time on earth i have seen the worrying shift from standing up for others and what is right. This cannot bode well for society. It is defeatist to ignore something that is wrong because it is difficult to get involved or because everyone does it.

    The above beinng said, perhaps it is not possible or prudent to always get involved? I do not know the specific background, but the guy was pointing a firearm / paintball gun.

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