Gert, Messor, Treeman, et al, you can rejoice!! (please open with a sense of humor)

[pblaauw]

Yup. That is why it should be classed with other ancients like the 303 and 45-70. The single occurence in the table was probably a fluke shot.

I suspect it was Messor under a psuedoname, but he couldn't figure out how to use his dials along with his ballistic app in the allotted time frame. In the Free State he sits for hours studying the kudu before shooting it, there they gave him 90 seconds

[Messor]

These fancy new calibres still (need to) practice, which means they acknowledge their shortcomings.

The older folks went for the real thing

Ds, fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony.

The 6.5 sweed was useless at hunting, it basically became extinct, precious few people even heard of the 6.5 in SA until recent decades.
What happened, people stopped hunting, and started target shooting, suddenly they did not require killing power, only external ballistics.
Look at the list, second on the list is the 6mm creed, give it a year or two and that will be the only thing on the list, since it does the same job with less recoil, external ballistics. The 260rem, first on the list, that was very popular a few years ago, now basically killed by the creed.

That bring us to Andrews question, surely skill plays a lot in this equation.
And that brings us to a short little story, you see one day someone asked me what I thought of F1, a bunch of cars driving around a course a lot of times. I told him there are 2 aspects, F1 is suppose to be the pinnacle of racing, but instead of the people building the best car they can possibly build, they have a lot of rules and restrictions. And these rules and restrictions does diddly squat, look at the manufacturers win history from 2000, only 4 makes on the win list, the rest are just there to be there. Tis because money thrown at the sport. Also, if you wanted to know who the best driver is, forget the manufacturers thing, give them all the EXACT same car. Meaning we have two concepts that does not reconcile.

And a shooting competition, want to know who is best, give them all the same equip.
Will people do this, hell no.

Now, the more you go down to reduce recoil, the less effective it becomes for hunting, since terminal ballistics is basically all a hunter cares about. What is the single most recommended hunting cartridge in SA today, a 6.5 of sorts, why, because that is what people use.
The irony, the exact same caliber they went over to purely for target requirements, that basically fell away because it was no good at hunting.

Now, where is all this going, probably the same way of lifts in a building. No matter what building you are in, people won’t use the stairs when a single floor needs to be accessed. People will stand in front of a lift and wait 2 minutes if needs be, but not the hell will they walk up the stairs that takes 10 seconds. What is the number one killer in the world, poor nutrition and a lack of exercise.

Now I don’t mind this all much, like in that movie “enter the dragon”, Bruce Lee tells his student not to focus on the finger pointing to the moon, because then you will miss all that heavenly glory. My time is better spent walking in the veld, since sitting still trying to shoot an animal at 1km you miss all that beautiful natural environment. Pretty much the same as people that spends all their time on the range. So my outdated 270 won’t just be traded in for a modern 6.5 just yet, I still need to make some memories for my olden days, seems the 6.5 owners have that in spades since they don’t bother creating them anymore, or perhaps they are all still waiting for the lift to arrive and magically deliver them to memories.

In the end a Ds and a Messor can sit around a fire and talk hunting stories.
6.5 owners spend their time arguing at what pressure their primers fall out.

(Ps, written with a fair amount of tongue in cheek, with a touch of truth to cause confusion)

[zs6hdv]

I have always regarded myself as quite recoil averse, which is why I shoot a 7x64, 175gr at around 2600 fps.

Only now do I realise that I am quite the he-man!

[Adoons]

Messor sums it up. Just to expand:

What is the best vehicle? A BMW X5 or Land Cruiser?

See, the answer is defined by the circumstance.

Which one between the two are the better calibre? 6,5 CM or 30-06?

Again, defined by circumstances.

And that is why I can not understand that a 6.5 CM owner would want to tell a 30-06 owner that the 6.5 is the better choice. Choice for what? My 30-06 with 180 gr Interbond Hornady at 2600 fps will hunt for instance Blue Wildebeest and Kudu with better consistency at normal hunting distances than a 6.5 CM.

A 6.5 CM will be better for target shooting at 500 m than the 30-06.

Defined by the circumstances of the question.

[Digby]

All I read here is "you should buy more rifles"...

[pblaauw]

(Ps, written with a fair amount of tongue in cheek, with a touch of truth to cause confusion)

Nicely written Messor, I enjoyed that

On a more serious note, imagine for a moment you are TStone. Two groups of hunters arrive. One lot have a Ventertjie full of beer, the other group a Ventertjie full of gear.

The morning before you take them to the field the 'beer' group asks what time they'll be back, and they grab their <insert caliber> rifles, but lets say 308's... The gear group asks what animals are being hunted and distances. Smaller animals, they grab the 6.5CM's... Bigger animals, they grab a 3006.. Eland, one gear guy takes out his 338LM with a grin...because overkill...

At the range the beer group laughs at the one guy with PMP brown box ammo as he keeps missing the gong at 150m, while the rest are eating chips and laughing. The gear group quietly sets up a Labradar and Magnetospeed. They measure speed at location, calculate drop tables, and then set off to hunt.

Beer group comes across a nice kudu, 300m off, but can't set up because they are not shooting from the back of a bakkie. They ask the PH is they can 'asseblief have one beer to calm the nerves". The PH is getting a bit annoyed, eventually takes them to a field where some blesbokke are and they shoot one or two. One is a 'pens skoot' and the PH has to down the animal because the beer group now all have 'bok koors'.

A little while later the gear group comes across the same kudu, but the shooting position is awkward. Gear group in seconds improvises a stable position using a backpack and spotting scope tripod leg, because they're used to it in matches. A quick glance at the wind meter by the spotter says wind is 4mp/h going left to right. Shooter holds for wind and bullet drop and the shot nails the kudu in the vitals. Later after lunch they go hunt the same group of blesbooke. They have now been shot 'wild!' and are far off and weary of a Hilux. Gear group uses their 6.5CM's, drops the blesbokke at distance, because their vitals are bigger than gongs and they know their bullet speeds, wind and drop tables.

That night the two groups sit around the fire. Beer group are going hard "Flippit Koos / Gert! Daai kudu was mooi, maar die PH is sommer 'n boks gewees omdat ons nie van die bakkie kon skiet!! Kom ons drink op die een wat weg gekom het!"

Gear group enjoys a quiet one, for the kudu that didn't get away...because practice makes perfect..

(To quote Messor: Written with a fair amount of tongue in cheek, as I am sure there are many hunters that are capable and have never shot a 6.5 of any sorts in their lives and can shoot the eye of a springbok at 500m)

[Bonedoc]

We cannot discount marksmanship here, we seem to fully attribute performance to diameter?

Ds, fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony.

The 6.5 sweed was useless at hunting, it basically became extinct, precious few people even heard of the 6.5 in SA until recent decades.
What happened, people stopped hunting, and started target shooting, suddenly they did not require killing power, only external ballistics.
Look at the list, second on the list is the 6mm creed, give it a year or two and that will be the only thing on the list, since it does the same job with less recoil, external ballistics. The 260rem, first on the list, that was very popular a few years ago, now basically killed by the creed.

That bring us to Andrews question, surely skill plays a lot in this equation.
And that brings us to a short little story, you see one day someone asked me what I thought of F1, a bunch of cars driving around a course a lot of times. I told him there are 2 aspects, F1 is suppose to be the pinnacle of racing, but instead of the people building the best car they can possibly build, they have a lot of rules and restrictions. And these rules and restrictions does diddly squat, look at the manufacturers win history from 2000, only 4 makes on the win list, the rest are just there to be there. Tis because money thrown at the sport. Also, if you wanted to know who the best driver is, forget the manufacturers thing, give them all the EXACT same car. Meaning we have two concepts that does not reconcile.

And a shooting competition, want to know who is best, give them all the same equip.
Will people do this, hell no.

Now, the more you go down to reduce recoil, the less effective it becomes for hunting, since terminal ballistics is basically all a hunter cares about. What is the single most recommended hunting cartridge in SA today, a 6.5 of sorts, why, because that is what people use.
The irony, the exact same caliber they went over to purely for target requirements, that basically fell away because it was no good at hunting.

Now, where is all this going, probably the same way of lifts in a building. No matter what building you are in, people won’t use the stairs when a single floor needs to be accessed. People will stand in front of a lift and wait 2 minutes if needs be, but not the hell will they walk up the stairs that takes 10 seconds. What is the number one killer in the world, poor nutrition and a lack of exercise.

Now I don’t mind this all much, like in that movie “enter the dragon”, Bruce Lee tells his student not to focus on the finger pointing to the moon, because then you will miss all that heavenly glory. My time is better spent walking in the veld, since sitting still trying to shoot an animal at 1km you miss all that beautiful natural environment. Pretty much the same as people that spends all their time on the range. So my outdated 270 won’t just be traded in for a modern 6.5 just yet, I still need to make some memories for my olden days, seems the 6.5 owners have that in spades since they don’t bother creating them anymore, or perhaps they are all still waiting for the lift to arrive and magically deliver them to memories.

In the end a Ds and a Messor can sit around a fire and talk hunting stories.
6.5 owners spend their time arguing at what pressure their primers fall out.

(Ps, written with a fair amount of tongue in cheek, with a touch of truth to cause confusion)

If you take pretty much any shooting competition in SA and give everybody the same rifle/scope/ammo to use, the most likely outcome is no/little change in top 30% and bottom 30%.
-Top 30% have right equipment for the job plus the skills to match and have put in the hours of practice. Yes, they have great equipment, but skill levels among the top competitors trump equipment.
-Middle third you have a mixed bag of "over kitted, under-skilled, under-practiced", middle of the range and a few under-kitted/over-skilled( ?naturally talented) who are distinctly disadvantaged by their lack of equipment. This is where the biggest swing in results will be between standardized equipment and custom.
-Lower third are there for the fun of it, maybe learn a few things and check out a new sport. Generally under-kitted/under-skilled/ poorly prepared. Giving them the best equipment around will make little difference.

[Messor]

On a more serious note, imagine for a moment you are TStone. Two groups of hunters arrive. One lot have a Ventertjie full of beer, the other group a Ventertjie full of gear.

He'd probably think "here we go again".

The intentions of the beer group is easy, to have a party.
He will have his hands full with them, them trying to keep theirs full.

The intentions of the gear group is scary, because a real hunter doesn't need any gear besides a rifle.
He will have his hands full with them, them trying to fiddle with unnecessary gear instead of hunting.

If a person, not a group, shows up with a single rifle in a proper hunting cartridge, and hits all the gongs from field positions first time, don't fiddle with his dials and don't make excuses of either lack of alcohol or equipment, then T-stone would probably start the hunt on a good note.


Drinkers, fiddlers, and hunters.
Temet Nosce

[Pirate]

Put differently: if you arrive with a ventertjie, rather let it be empty, so there is space to take home the carcasses

[Gert Odendaal]

See, the CM isn't magical, you were all right, the x55 Swede is better! Pity that 270 didn't do so well

You quite right, but it is incredible just how many 6.5 Creedmoor rifles took part in this competition, at least we know without a doubt that the 6.5 Creedmoor is a target caliber and not a hunting caliber..like Hornady pointed out..so hunters who have a 6.5 Creedmoor apply the caliber for what it was designed to do...long range shooting..not hunting...