Vektor CR-21 assault rifle

[Analyst]

OK shooter comfort insofar as the design is intended. If you're shooting a non-ambidextrous bullpup from the left shoulder you're just being a twit. And depending on the position of the cocking handle you can add smashed cheekbone / jaw to the list of your discomforts.

[ikor]

I was issued a Steyer A.U.G. select fire 16in. carbine and carried / shot / used it for over 10 years. Never a malfunction in quite a few thousand rounds...all factory ammo. Lots of folks think the Steyer is among the very best of the bullpups, and I cannot deny it is a fine machine but as with others is the species it has its own issues. First is balance...I have never seen a rifle of this type that balanced worth a damn and the Steyer was no exception...it is heavier than it looks, too, weighing in at well over 8lb. with loaded mag, and almost all that weight in the rear. Second is very slow reloading compared to traditional rifle designs...not as big an issue if you have a partner or squadmates to give covering fire, but pretty important to a lone shooter who may need to reload more than once if engaged by multiple, armed bad guys.. Third is the fact that if you do have a malfunction, most bullpups are not well set up to enable quickly clearing the breech area, reloading and getting back in the fight...AUG included. Fourth is a general lack of 'modularity' where shooters need a shorter stock or when adding things such as optics, lasers, lights and NV gear is difficult and expensive. Fifth, few have a decent bore to sight ratio, and while the Brits' SA80 and the later AUGs with the picatinney rail on top do address the problem if using Aimpoint or Etch, but the French FAMAS with optic mounted looks awkward as all Hell to me (never shot one however). The AUG does have the ability to be changed over for a left shoulder shooter but it requires a parts change, and thus the rifle is not really 'ambidextrous'.

I can tell you that both the Brit and Aussie SpecOps guys use M4's and not the AUG or SA 80, and while a part of that is no doubt logistics, my understanding is that they also prefer it over their own military's rifles.

[SkoposGuns]

The CR-21 was an effort by Denel towards delivering a South African version Bull-Bup version of the range of assault rifles that abounded in the late 1990's. It is based on the R-4 series LEW/Denel South African assault rifle, but never achieved the reputation it desired. It was subjected for SANDF evaluation in the 90's as well but did not attract the attention it was looking for. The CR-21 is nothing but a sleeve that fits over the basic assembly of the existing R-4 series, with the aim the change the centre of gravity and actually making it a bit shorter than a normal R-4 assault rifle.

It was not enhanced at all when the Denel factory decided to stop all production of local assault rifles, thus ending the life of the R-4 series rifles. There is an supplier that basically bought over all CR-21 sets/conversions and they are available for those interested. I can put those interested in contact with the supplier.

[SSP]

OK shooter comfort insofar as the design is intended. If you're shooting a non-ambidextrous bullpup from the left shoulder you're just being a twit. And depending on the position of the cocking handle you can add smashed cheekbone / jaw to the list of your discomforts.

You appear to have missed the point. There may come a time when a situation may require that you shoot off your left shoulder. If the weapon system doesnt support this then, in my view, it should be reconsidered.

[Analyst]

Let me qualify: my original post regarding bullpup rifles not necessarily compromising shooter comfort was based upon a general definition of bullpup as a rifle designed such as the receiver group is placed behind the firing hand. This does not include the phrase "and irreversably ejects spent cases to the right at ninety degrees to the long axis of the weapon". Yes, there are those that do this, most notably the SA80, but this is simply a poor design feature, and should not be taken as a general blight upon the bullpup design concept. What I was originally saying was that the design does not necessarily compromise operating speed and effectiveness. Yes, there are poorly put together bullpups which do compromise left-handed firers and the ability to switch shoulders, and trying to ignore those deficiencies will incur injury. Again, I was not referring to these in my earlier post.

[shaan]

So, would it be safe to assume that the bullpup design holds no MAJOR advantages over a short barreled assult rifle?

From what you guys are saying, its uncomfortable, unusable for lefties (or when the situation dictates left hand shooting)... basically a gimmick of sorts.

Thanks for the informative posts guys...

[SSP]

It does pemit a full length barrel, and the ballistics that that offers, in shortened package. However, overall, I think its disadvantages outweigh this.

[Analyst]

Well look Shaan, if its a "gimmick" then its one that is being adopted by more and more forces around the world and being refined impressively as it goes. From the FN P-90 (yes, its a bullpup) to the Chinese QBZ series to the Russian Groza to Singapore's SAR21, Israel's Tavor and others the design is continuously being worked on and proving itself in combat. Yes, you will always find reports concluding "bring back the [insert previously used weapon] but that's nothing unusual, and not how weapons systems get to develop.

One area I'm guessing bullpups would bring a great advantage to would be the sniping arena. I've yet to learn of the ERMA being used in combat, so if anyone knows anything...

[shaan]

Analyst, I may have changed my mind about the futrue of the bullpup design... after playing with google I came across the following page http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn75-e.htm .

Its a Kel-tec RFB rifle, which uses a method that ejects the spent brass out of the front of the rifle... thus avoiding pi$$ing on the lefies battries (or righties that need to fire using the left shoulder) by giving an ear full of hot brass... If all the future bullpups have a method of directing hot brass from the shooters face I may just become a fan...

[pietskiet]

i have shot the Cr21 and to me it is the cp1. Beautifully but useless. I love my z88 thou,don't know how many rounds i have put through how many z88's but never a stopage. had 1 with a brand new barette though