Vektor CR-21 assault rifle

[Tommie]

One area I'm guessing bullpups would bring a great advantage to would be the sniping arena. I've yet to learn of the ERMA being used in combat, so if anyone knows anything...

One area I'm guessing bullpups would bring a great advantage to would be the sniping arena. I've yet to learn of the ERMA being used in combat, so if anyone knows anything...

Your guessing is 100% on target, two nice sniper systems in the Israeli defense force inventory is the M89 and the TAVOR STAR. These are combat proven and regarded as very good quality weapons. The Tavor is also a excellent combat rifle. These bullpups is very good for urban fighting conditions. The main advantage of a bullpup is the extra barrel lenght, that can gives you better accuracy for sniping conditions and shorter overall lenght of weapon especially in confined spaces. The Tavor's have five models as far as I can remember. The TAR (Standard), MTAR (Micro), CTAR (Commander), STAR (Sniping) and GTAR (Grenade Launcher Attached). I know these two systems is reliable. The main thing is the training to succesfully operate these weapons. The Israeli forces stick with their Colt M16 / M4 Systems due to the low prices and package deals available to them. The TAVOR is also used by some units in the Thai and Guatemalan forces as far as i know.

The TAVOR

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/IMI-Tavor


The M89


http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn66-e.htm


Back to the CR-21, The Cr-21 is a R4- receiver and barrel, with a investment casted gasblock without the frontsites seen on the R series and Galil Rifles. There is a short picatinny optical mount above were the gastube and receiver meet. The bolt carrier is a R4 carrier without the right sided cocking lever, with a stud on top of the bolt carrier instead. The new cocking lever pin meets at the stud of the modified bolt carrier. this modified r4 system is covered by an nylon polymer injection molded cover. Its not a useless rifle in my opinion. Not my type, but it was good medium type rifle, with a quick fix to replace the service rifle of the SANDF for their large quantity of old R4 availaBLE FOR PARTS.

[Craig]

I'm a little confused about the point of the CR21, not the fact that it's a bullpup, just Vectors thinking.

Here's how I see it, please help me if I'm missing something. SA wanted, needed a new rifle? Vector made the CR21 as a possible replacement? SA decided they'd stay with the R series and Vector closed down, even though they had the monopoly. Now, we don't have spares for the R series and there no way we can adopt the CR21 as Vector closed. Why did they bother?

[Tommie]

I'm a little confused about the point of the CR21, not the fact that it's a bullpup, just Vectors thinking.

Here's how I see it, please help me if I'm missing something. SA wanted, needed a new rifle? Vector made the CR21 as a possible replacement? SA decided they'd stay with the R series and Vector closed down, even though they had the monopoly. Now, we don't have spares for the R series and there no way we can adopt the CR21 as Vector closed. Why did they bother?

Israel Military Industries started with the Tavor development and designing project in 1991. I think due to the relationship between IMI and LIW that there could have been a possibility that LIW knew about the development of the Tavor. IMI and LIW were on a basis were they even supplied parts to each other if required or if one is running short in their R-series and Galil production. If you look at the early prototypes of the Tavor, you can see some influences that it could have had on the CR21 development. In my opinion the CR21 was developed in order to keep production facilities as standard as possible, with minor changes to equipment to manufacture the CR21 and still be able to continue the R-series and for re-use of old parts from military R4's as thousand are available.

The need for replacing the old services rifles was important, but I think due to financial implication the goverment failed to replace the R4’s at the required time. Or maybe the current Government prefers not to deal with the Israeli’s IMI/IWI as they sponsored and supply South Africa, Denel LIW with the technology to manufacture small arms for their military campaigns during apartheid?
I think it’s only a change over period to repair the thousands of R4’s, and not a decision to stick with the R4 for a long term period. Luckily the R4 receiver is top quality and will last much longer than those of the Ak – Sheet metal pressing types. In my Opinion it is also the same reason why the CR21 was design and developed to re-use the thousands of old military R4 rifles and safe them machining cost of the receivers, and many other parts. Result is an old gun, with new furniture an look 21st century.

LIW / Vektor was “sponsored” by the SA government, suddenly after 1994 many of these types of institutions were privatized, and thus no more back up on funding. If you look at the financial situation of Denel a few years back it was quite shaky. Then they started to address all problem area and is currently doing very well as I understand.

Vektor suddenly stopped production of all pistols and sporting firearms during that period. Also losing many of their top engineers and many persons with “the know how”.

If you look at some of their production facilities it was totally outdated. Thus their manufacturing costs is much more than what some newer technologies could have offered. To get a product that sells you need to manufacture at a cost that is reasonable. It seem that LIW missed that point due to their sponsership by the Goverment in the past.

I think it is a matter of bad decision making, the loss of major key personnel and the attitude as I understand, that they will only start up their production plant for an order of at least 50 000 R-series rifles. I also do understand that they are still willing to start production if they receive an order of 50 000 units. In my opinion it is currently impossible to for them to do that, but you never know! That’s my silly opinion.

[Craig]

Thanks Tommie, that all makes sense.

From what I understand the TAVOR as we know it today has a similar bolt design or lock up to the AR rifle, just about as accurate, has select fire capabilities and uses STANAG mags, to name a few. This is a modern design, but has taken some time to get there. I like the look of this rifle and have seem and read good things about it.

I may be wrong, but I still think the CR21 was a short cut, a bit slap stick and suffered as a result. Yes, cost wise it was a good idea, and only to SA, but not if you're a private military manufacturer trying to make a living, resurecting the dead wont cut it when new cutting edge design ideas are being put to market.

Just my opinion.

[Tommie]

the CR21 is good. but if you look at the whole idea, try to convert a v6 to a v12 engine.NO NO NO. there is in my opinion a lack of creativity and designing experience and expertise in the small arms industry in SA. Build and design a new V12 not convert something and try to make it work and look good. You have to convert something in prototype fase to learn and see what an idea offers. If you look out of a designing point of view the method of designing was correct and the CR21 as known should actually be a prototype for a more succesfull rifle, but they've stopped to early and stick to that design or modification. But then again these guys came from a spoon fed situation by the Israeli's and their technology.

Have a nice day!!!

[Johann du Toit]

I read the IDF has adopted the MTAR to be their new service rifle, as opposed to the TAR and CTAR versioins. Not common that a military chooses a micro rifle over the full sized andcompact variants.
The Pennsylvania State Capitol Police SWAT also adopted a modified variant of the TAR as their new tactical rifle
As for our SANDF, I bet our next service rifle will likely be supplied by the company that pays out the most bribes.

[Dukren]

Necro thread rises :D

[Wanderin' Zero]

the Denel factory decided to stop all production of local assault rifles, thus ending the life of the R-4 series rifles.

Where did you get that bit of misinformation from? Denel is still building new R4 rifles.

[DS]

Where did you get that bit of misinformation from? Denel is still building new R4 rifles.

That post by SkoposGuns was made in Dec 2008.

[Wanderin' Zero]

That post by SkoposGuns was made in Dec 2008.

I realised after I'd replied. :-) Decided to leave it anyway.