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Thread: Loaded Rifles.

  1. #51
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    Default Re: Loaded Rifles.

    Smurf, do you understand the internal mechanical differences between the guns in the videos (a pump shotgun, and an AK) and a bolt-action rifle? Do you realise the topic of the video is about home defence guns and not hunting rifles, and that you cannot apply the conclusions drawn regarding one to the other?

    I know for a fact the AK has an internal hammer and a floating firing pin, and I strongly suspect the shotgun will have the a similar firing mechanism. That's not even remotely the same as what's used in a bolt action rifle. Also, we're not talking about dropping the gun on it's muzzle, as in the video, but on it's buttstock, hence the whole cartridge would move downwards, with the primer against a protruding firing pin. Conservation of momemtum says there's a pretty good chance the primer will be activated by the firing pin.

    I know this sounds like being a pompous ass, but I'd strongly advise that you familiarise yourself with the mechanical operation of your hunting rifle before venturing out in the hunting field again, for that sake of your own, and your hunting buddies' safety.

  2. #52
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    Default Re: Loaded Rifles.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaavG View Post
    Any idea as to what causes a safety to disengage like that? That's scary to have happen.
    The safety lever, which moves very easily, got caught on some part of my backpack and the safety got disengaged. Really a scary moment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
    There is no way a chambered round with decocked firing pin will fire from the hardest of bumps. Physically impossible.
    The firing pin cannot overcome the force of the spring so as to build enough momentum to impact primer with enough force to ignite same.

    It is only possible if rifle falls exactly on back of bolt with enough impact on an exposed firing pin.
    Exactly as I told, if you hit on the end of the bolt, the primer will ignite. Falling isn't the problem, dropping your rifle on something hard is: to my recollection the fatality happened when the PH hit his rifle on his car while putting the "safe" rifle away from his hands igniting the primer and killing himself during the process. You do understand that the spring is actually pushing the firing pin quite forcefully on the primer, so you don't need much force for the primer to ignite. This isn't a case of inertia induced slamfire, but a direct transference of momentum by hitting the end of the actual firing pin.


    Quote Originally Posted by pre 64 View Post
    AK...why would you want a trigger set at 700 grams?
    I was hunting black grouse and the range varies from about 50 to over 300 meters with about 50 mm target area for a positive kill: you do want a light trigger pull under these parameters :)

  3. #53
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    Default Re: Loaded Rifles.

    I checked last night and the firing pins of both my k98 and Howa's are pressed against the primer when the action is de-cocked. The firing pin spring holds the firing pin against the primer.

    The Blaser R93 and R8 and the Mauser M-03 were designed to be carried de-cocked but they are very different from most bolt action rifles.

    Pirate, I see what you mean about the empty case being a lot lighter than a loaded cartridge. I can't think of a safe way to test this with a live cartridge. I will watch muzzle direction.

    Just picturing a firing pin pressed against a live primer by a strong spring, convince me that this is not a good idea.

  4. #54
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    Default Re: Loaded Rifles.

    In my opinion more AD's happen in the hunting field due to fiddling with firearms because of all the abovementioned ways of carrying them. Then also an oppurtunity for a shot arise, now the open bolts are closed or the rounds are chambered or the bolt handle is lifted and dropped again etc etc. And the shot is not taken and people forget what happened and later we have the story of "But I am sure I made it safe again." (What ever your safe procedure is.) Or when fiddling the shot is being fired.

    For safety, consistency is the best. Same as carrying for a SD sidearm. Always know the state of your firearm and always do it in the same way.

    I carry in the hunting field with the bolt closed, round chambered, and safety on. (A thumb safety, only catching the trigger I know) Before taking a shot, safety off. Like in aim, safety off, check aim, fire. If quarry moves away, safety on, carry on with hunt.

    The problem for me lies not in the safety of safeties etc BUT - GET YOUR MUZZLE AWARENESS CORRECT!!!! WITH ALL FIREARMS AND IN ALL SITUATIONS!!!!!

    Normally we are two hunting together. The hunter with the loaded rifle walks in front. This thing of a guide in front and a hunter behind with the rifle is not the way to do it. If the second person also carries a rifle, that rifle will be empty. Only 1 rifle in a hunting party at one stage is loaded and that rifle is in front. The second one can chamber after the initial shot for backup word or whatever.

    After firing, everybody checks everyones rifle for safety.

    On hunting vehicles, all rifles are checked to be rounds only in the magazine and the bolt then closed on the empty chamber. No half open and half closed or fully open or whatever. Why? If all knows the state of all rifles and anybody fiddles with his rifle, off he go to the camp. With all sorts of half open and whatever the story is: "I am just checking that the bolt did not close." Or "I am just checking the safety catch." NO! One rule for all and thats it.

    If you feel that when hunting in mountains and dropping a rifle might be a risk, carry it with the chamber empty and the bolt fully closed. If the noise of chambering is costing you the opportunity, so be it.

    If in thick scrub and the hunter carries in his hand or the stalking process, also then, the muzzle to the front and the accomplices or guides to the back.

    MUZZLE CONSCIOUS, is all it takes.

  5. #55
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    Default Re: Loaded Rifles.

    This morning while hunting I lowered a Howa's firing pin onto a loaded round, there was a slight, but clearly visible, indentation on the primer.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by TStone View Post
    This morning while hunting...
    You do understand the jealousy we feel, when our equivalent is "This morning when I sat in traffic on my way to the office..."

  7. #57
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    Default Re: Loaded Rifles.

    There was a time when I had a real job too, so I do understand. To get back on topic, I primed a .300 win mag case with a CCI200 primer, chambered it in my Howa and lowered the bolt while holding the trigger back and then bounced the stock on a concrete floor. The primer fired on the second bounce.

    To make sure that it was not a once off occurrence, I repeated the test. The primer fired on the second bounce. So, I have to stand by my initial statement concerning this mode of carry, IT IS DANGEROUS!

  8. #58
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    Default Re: Loaded Rifles.

    Quote Originally Posted by TStone View Post
    There was a time when I had a real job too, so I do understand. To get back on topic, I primed a .300 win mag case with a CCI200 primer, chambered it in my Howa and lowered the bolt while holding the trigger back and then bounced the stock on a concrete floor. The primer fired on the second bounce.

    To make sure that it was not a once off occurrence, I repeated the test. The primer fired on the second bounce. So, I have to stand by my initial statement concerning this mode of carry, IT IS DANGEROUS!
    Eish! Glad I read this thread...

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by TStone View Post
    There was a time when I had a real job too, so I do understand. To get back on topic, I primed a .300 win mag case with a CCI200 primer, chambered it in my Howa and lowered the bolt while holding the trigger back and then bounced the stock on a concrete floor. The primer fired on the second bounce.To make sure that it was not a once off occurrence, I repeated the test. The primer fired on the second bounce. So, I have to stand by my initial statement concerning this mode of carry, IT IS DANGEROUS!
    THIS.I have seen it happen in the field with a live round. Guys check your safety works and use the rifle as it was designed when loaded or carry empty chamber. If it's faulty get it repaired by a suitable gunsmith. DIY trigger fiddling to lighten the trigger pull is also a no no if you do not know what you are doing. They are sometimes linked to the safety.

  10. #60
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    Default Re: Loaded Rifles.

    Thanks for doing the testing TStone.

    I think it is something good to know. Especially the fact that you tested a Howa, as it is a commonly recommended rifle.

    My mode of carry in the field, and when in the "hot seat" on the back of the bakkie is also round in chamber, bolt lifted up. If not in the hot seat, I carry condition 3.

    Another thought, as some guys have already said as well, is that one should keep the 4 firearm handling rules in mind at all times, and know in what state your firearm is in at all times. Just this already makes for safer conditions.

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