SNAP POLL: FUNDING YOUR OWN NATIONAL ORGANISATION

**Wanderin' Zero** · 21-10-2015, 16:51

Originally Posted by Paul

It couldn't have been. The founding meeting (in John Welch's offices) was in 1985 (and I know it was 85 because we only founded the RAU Shooting Club in 85 and I was there on their ticket).

Are you sure that trust deed is valid? ;-{>}

Can we get the thread back on track please? Whether its 30 or 31 or 35 makes no difference to the principle.

**Zoo Keeper** · 21-10-2015, 16:58

Originally Posted by Wanderin' Zero

You need at least 30,000 for this thing to work properly. Much less than that and its probably not going to achieve much.

Agree fully. We also need manufacturers in on this one. Their market will be destroyed unless they help out. Quite a lot has been achieved with very little already, but for professional lobbying you need paid professionals and the Big Leagues of lobbying are ranged against us, like it or not.

Often I speak to gun owners and they have a "can't be serious" look on their faces. Lots seem to think if they just keep their heads down it will pass over, or "someone else will do it".

I think everyone needs to realize the Mongols really are at the gate. They have come for us whether we like it or not and they play dirty - very dirty. If we are to stand any chance we have to take them head on and that takes commitment.

(Obviously you have my R500 and pro-bono time)

**Pirate** · 21-10-2015, 17:58

Originally Posted by Willie Barnard

No I am not ruling out SAHGCA, neither am I speaking on their behalf. I am sure there is still a chance.
I was just worried about the history.

Willie Barnard

Paul did mention earlier in this thread that both SAHGCA and CHASA participate fully in the current fight.

I'm feeling the arguments are going round in circles now. Even those that disagree, only disagree on the details, we all agree on the "big things", namely that a well-funded firearms rights organisation is needed, and that we'll contribute to it in some way or another. We all agree that it needs to be run on proper corporate governance principles. 80/20 principle people: we agree on what is important, don't torpedo our own boat before it's let to water, because we can't exactly agree (as a miniscule subset of the total firearms owners in the country) on the fine details. I get worried when I see "mom and dad" fight on this topic (WZ, MTTSS, wrm, Paul, you can decide for yourself who's mom and who's dad, but you are the guys that need to present a united front, even to us...)

As an outside commentator, I believe this thread has served its purpose.

:- P

**A-R** · 21-10-2015, 19:18

Originally Posted by MTTSS

No, there is no other way.

If you take this brief to just get the legal structure in place to one of the top 5 law firms, you will look at a bill of R1 mil +. Just imagine all the parties that will need to be consulted and all the re-drafts to make sure everyone is happy.

And that is where the penny (again) drops.

There are at least 5 guys in our immediate ranks that I know of, thinking quickly, that does this type of work.

Shall we (again) expect them to do this on a pro bono basis (leaving paying work behind - so that Joe-sitting-in-his-chair can save R42 that month), and in addition thereto, cover the disbursements out of their own pockets?

Well, getting regular funds from all members won't happen untill after everything has been put in place and the whole process has been kick-started. I can't speak on their behalf, but I'm pretty sure all our sport shooting and hunters' associations will contribute substantially to get things going.

**scouser** · 22-10-2015, 07:29

I have no issue with paying R500, I have no issue with people taking salaries from this pot, all I want in return for my money is no infighting/power struggles that negates my financial contribution to a waste and effectively blunts the point of all of this, regular reports about what you're up to (monthly), litigation to provide a clear path/definitions in relation to the application process, particularly the PAJA issue (ie the fact that SAPS just ignores those notices) and what constitutes an acceptable and reasonable motivation.

I have to agree with Pirate and A-R, the talking is done. The only thing left is the action, time to set it up and crack on.

**BadBoyTazz4Ever** · 22-10-2015, 08:37

Had to vote maybe and the maybe is based on my financial position.

I'm all for something like this but unfortunately money at this point in my life is stretched to breaking point if not past it.

In truth i'm wondering if i'll be able to join 1/2 the organisations i'm associated with next year, just trying to scratched together the finances to cover the needed shoots for my Dedicated status this year was a mission.

Also as much as i like the idea i can honestly say a "mandatory" fee like this will tip a few of the people that i know that are on the brink of buying a FA over to the i can live without it as finances are tight and FA's and Training are expensive enough already to have them doubting if it's worth the money.

**MTTSS** · 22-10-2015, 08:44

Originally Posted by BadBoyTazz4Ever

Had to vote maybe and the maybe is based on my financial position.

I'm all for something like this but unfortunately money at this point in my life is stretched to breaking point if not past it.

In truth i'm wondering if i'll be able to join 1/2 the organisations i'm associated with next year, just trying to scratched together the finances to cover the needed shoots for my Dedicated status this year was a mission.

Also as much as i like the idea i can honestly say a "mandatory" fee like this will tip a few of the people that i know that are on the brink of buying a FA over to the i can live without it as finances are tight and FA's and Training are expensive enough already to have them doubting if it's worth the money.

Or it may tip people over to say, jis, all will not be lost, there is a plan on the table, I am buying that other firearm (and not sell everything in the light of what is to come), and I will continue with x activity.

**Gunservant** · 22-10-2015, 08:56

Originally Posted by Pirate

Paul did mention earlier in this thread that both SAHGCA and CHASA participate fully in the current fight.

I'm feeling the arguments are going round in circles now. Even those that disagree, only disagree on the details, we all agree on the "big things", namely that a well-funded firearms rights organisation is needed, and that we'll contribute to it in some way or another. We all agree that it needs to be run on proper corporate governance principles. 80/20 principle people: we agree on what is important, don't torpedo our own boat before it's let to water, because we can't exactly agree (as a miniscule subset of the total firearms owners in the country) on the fine details. I get worried when I see "mom and dad" fight on this topic (WZ, MTTSS, wrm, Paul, you can decide for yourself who's mom and who's dad, but you are the guys that need to present a united front, even to us...)

As an outside commentator, I believe this thread has served its purpose.

:- P

This.

**Gunservant** · 22-10-2015, 09:05

My last two cents: perhaps I am overly trusting, but having seen up-close and personally the way in which people have handled this fight and bankrolled it from their personal accounts, I have no doubt that this organisation will be ethically run and its officers be held accountable to those who pay in. Frankly, we don't have much choice: if we lose this fight, it is bye-bye baby to all your guns real soon. It is only due to incredible teamwork born from utter desperation that we managed to stave-off those amendments.

As far as gun owners voluntarily parting with their money, it doesn't really happen. They aren't even willing to part with their time. When I organised the demonstration in front of parliament back in March, I received expressed interest literally only from a handful of people. Sure, the City of Cape Town stuffed us around with dates and this resulted in more dropping out, but I am talking of when we where still arranging the thing. Maybe 20 people expressed interest in attending a demonstration which was intended to support people fighting for us not to lose our guns, and nobody else could be bothered. Plenty of excuses, but no commitment. Our grassroots support structure is pathetic, I am sorry to say.

So unless we get the funding we need, it is this:

**BadBoyTazz4Ever** · 22-10-2015, 09:06

Originally Posted by MTTSS

Or it may tip people over to say, jis, all will not be lost, there is a plan on the table, I am buying that other firearm (and not sell everything in the light of what is to come), and I will continue with x activity.

Fair for those that have the financial ability for this, but if you only have R1k or less "spending money" after paying all your bills you don't get a bonus in December to save for all the signups in January and February now you try and split that R1k or R500 into signing up with a sport shooting body around R600, Buying reloading supply's, Fuel to travel to said sporting events. Ooo Don't forget unforeseen doc visits for the kids that the medical aid don't cover.

Now try and dig out another R500 from all of that...

And i'm not the only person i know that money is tight for