30-06 and Kudu vs .223 and Impala

[treeman]

Barking up the wrong tree here Shooty.

Driepootx is my GunSite buddy. You can interpret his comment anyway you want but I know his ethical code having spoken and debated with him for many a year.

[treeman]

Adoons, I came to page to post a post, the post was going to be "Impala and the .223".
I opened Gun Site to ask the said question you posted.

When I bought Cody's .223, 5/6 years ago I post regarding this subject and more specifically for use on Warthog.
I have shot a few Warthog of the smaller sort with the .223 using 65 Gr Sierra Game Kings, they were all well shot behind the shoulder and they were all long haulers before going down.
I will be a rifle short in two weeks’ time and was thinking of using the .223 for the Impala, I was thinking they thin skinned and not all that big at all, surely a double lung shot should drop them in.223 just as efficiently as a shot from a .308 or .270, after all - through and through is right through regardless.

I am now beginning to wonder, perhaps the .223 is not an "ok" choice? I know it’s not the "best", but I thought it was adequate in a capable shooters hands.

[MyLani]

I have shot Impala, Blesbuck and Warthog with the 223.
Warthog, I stick to head shots. Impala and Blesbuck, if you can't do a head shot then shot placement is critical. This has all been part of management duties.

I have even shot a kudu bull with my 223,but that's because another hunter wounded it and all I had with me was my 223 when I went to help. A shot behind the shoulder avoiding the heavy bones put the bull down.

So with correct shot placement, it can work. But, the animals can cover some ground before dropping.

That being said, I don't recommend it at all as a "hunting" caliber. I personally prefer the the 243 is the entry level rifle for hunting, and that being your Springbuck, Warthog, Blesbuck and Impala sized animals.
For the Kudu sized animals, a 6.5 is the minimum, yet I prefer the 270 and upwards.

As for the OP using the 223, and in a Semi Auto rifle(with Mag removed), it is his property, his game and he is within his rights to do it. I do not see an ethical issue using the rifle in that form, or even if he left the magazine in. It was a controlled hunt with a young lady who had no other suitable rifle. A close stalk was done, and precise shot was executed, resulting in a clean kill. Well done to her.

[Adoons]

Treeman, I know yourself and Cody are good marksmen. A .223 is capable. It was just that I was really astonished at the difference in internal organ damage between the two hunts that "scared" me from a .223 for anything bigger than Impala and then also still with perfect shot placement.

On the farm recovery can become a serious issue when kudu run into the mountains when wounded. It is also impossible to stalk them in the thickets as there are pebbles everywhere. So a lightly wounded kudu just keep on running, waiting, looking at you as you get closer and crunching along and then just take off again. For this reason we need kudu to go down quickly. I have heard wonderful stories of successful .223 kills on even huge kudu bulls. But, for me, I would not even try under the circumstances on the farm. If you miss the heart, form what I have seen this weekend by comparing the two animals with different calibers, is that a kudu bull will go a long way. If you push your shot further back to hit the liver only, your hunt will extend by a day a two. If the angle of the shot is such that you need to break shoulder bones to hit the heart I have doubts that there will be serious organ damage to kill quickly. If you go over the shoulder bones to hit top of lungs the lung damage will also have you tracking a long time. On frontal shots I seriously wonder if, after penetrating the brisket if damage will be good enough for a quick kill.

On Impala the bones and brisket etc are thinner and softer. I will use it again on impala if needed. But on body shots on large animals and a not precise and close up shot? Not for me. Definitely not for Kudu of BWB or Red Hart etc.

The limitations and chance of a screw up if your shot is not true is huge.

(Side note - My girl is a good markswoman. Practice a lot with a PCP and .22. We studied shot placement a lot. I was confident she know where to shoot, we waited for the precise broadside shot and before hand decided 60 meters to be the maximum shooting distance. For a hunt where somebodies child is on the farm that are not a hunter and just quickly want to shoot something I will not use a .223 No way.)

[treeman]

My first 3 kudu were with a .223, why? Well I started hunting from army days and the .223/5.56 mm was capable of shooting through a railway line and flat shooting out to 300 m and better than any rifle in the world, thats why the SADF used it. ([IMG]file:///C:\Users\Treeman\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif[/IMG])
I was a good shot and head shots were what real shooters did. I will never do so again, and I will not even consider a person’s opinion that argues for its use as a kudu rifle.

My main interest was Impala, Blesbuck size animals and even there I would not consider it an adequate calibre even though it is quite capable. (I was hoping not to have to realize this). I will hunt such as animals with it, but I will neither promote nor suggest its use again.

I am still a rifle short this week end, guess the 303 will have to come out again.

[Messor]

Twist rate, that is the thing that hampers most 223 rifles in SA, you can’t stabilize proper hunting bullets.
Most 223 rifles doing the rounds in SA have 1in 9 twist or less, for a hunting model you need more.
If you have a 1 in 8 you can shoot a 70gr TSX, if you have a 1 in 7 you can shoot a 78gr TSX at normal hunting speeds, that is MORE than enough medicine for normal mid sized game.

That is not the trick with hunting though, when you walk in the veld you need something that can cover most scenarios. If you are doing a springbok voorsit shoot you know exactly what you’ll be doing that day, any small cal will do. But when you hunt bush terrain you have no idea what will walk in front of you at any given moment, that is why carrying a 30 cal makes so much sense as a general hunting rifle, can shoot from the smallest to the biggest.

[CorditeCrazy]

Shooting game with a semi auto rifle is not an ethical issue at all.

[Messor]

Shooting game with a semi auto rifle is not an ethical issue at all.

Well, yes, more or less, I think it is.

There is a reason why we are not allowed to buy alcohol at this moment, it’s because some….humans just cannot act responsibly when they drink, they go full retard.
Same goes for shooting, instead of using a proper hunting cartridge some…..humans will use a small semi and go full ape.

So the subject is then one of ethics, but more precisely the lack thereof, in a society you are punished for the behavior of others, it simply does not matter how well you handle your own firearm or how ethical you are, rules are made to prevent people from going full retard.

I suspect this is one of those.

[A-R]

I don't feel inclined to get involved in a debate over the ethics of using an AR in single-shot mode or any similar silliness...

On the suitability of the 223 for hunting Impala:

Yes, with the generally available expanding ammo, you will have bullet fragmentation issues, especially at short range. From around 200m, where the bulet has lost some speed due to drag, the impact velocities get into the zone where fragmentation is somewhat less. Keep in mind that the 223 in commercial form is primarliy a varmint cartridge and bullet selection is mostly aimed at that market, meaning the bullets have thin jackets and tend to fragment significantly.

Similarly, if you used a 110 or 125gn varmint bullet in your 30-06, it would also perform like the fragmenting varmint load that it is.

I would expect the Fusion ammo to be somewhat more resistant to fragmentation, but bonding alone can only do so much. Thicker jackets and harder cores would have helped to get even better penetration and less fragmentation.

Over the years, I have shot many game animals with a 223, most of them simply because I bumped into them and had some good reason to kill them. In such cases shot placement is crucial. Just an example to illustrate the point: When hunting vervet monkeys in the riverine thickets in my area, it sometimes happens that I bump into bushpigs. Besides being dangerous, they are also regarded as crop-raiding pests, so they will be shot at any opportunity. This can get quite tricky if you want to shoot a big porker at close range with your fragile varmint bullets. So I always carried a few FMJ rounds as back-up. While not ideal for hunting, at least these bullets tend to penetrate much deeper than the varminters. (That presupposes that one would have the time to load them...)

Some 223 bullets are much more suitable to hunting Impala than others. If you are lucky (or wise?) enough to have a 223 with fast-twist rifling, there is a decent variety of heavy 223 bullets available for loading. Even the various 75, 77 en 80gn target bullets seem to penetrate much better and fragment less than the typical 50 and 55gn bullets. Check the twist rate of your AR's barrel. Generally, a 1:12" barrel will stabilize up to 60gn conventional cup/core bullets. 1:9" should go up to 70gn and 1:8" up to 80gn. Then there are also bonded bullets like Rhino, that have a thick, bonded jacket and solid copper base. These penetrate better than any other expanding bullets (of comparable weight) that I have ever used in a 223. The expanding copper monometal bullets like Barnes X also perform similarly, provided the correct bullet weight was selected.

If I were in your position, I would develop a specialized hunting load with Rhino (or similar) bullets for the 223 and use that for these hunts. The confidence built while using a managable rifle and caliber far outweigh the negatives. It will also reinforce the importance of proper shot placement, as there will not be much margin for error. Do not be tempted to go for bigger game like kudu, as that will most likely result in a wounded and lost animal.

[CorditeCrazy]

Well, yes, more or less, I think it is.

There is a reason why we are not allowed to buy alcohol at this moment, it’s because some….humans just cannot act responsibly when they drink, they go full retard.
Same goes for shooting, instead of using a proper hunting cartridge some…..humans will use a small semi and go full ape.

So the subject is then one of ethics, but more precisely the lack thereof, in a society you are punished for the behavior of others, it simply does not matter how well you handle your own firearm or how ethical you are, rules are made to prevent people from going full retard.

I suspect this is one of those.

I didn’t mention caliber at all. I just said hunting with a semiauto isn’t an ethical issue. People with bolt guns and pump actions also go full regard and alcohol isn’t banned because of behavioral issues it banned because he government went full retard.