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  1. #11

    Default Re: Use of Deadly Force in Self-Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Grobbie View Post
    How did you get to the conclusion that their could be an attempted murder charge?


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    Just to be clear, I'm not saying he should or shouldn't.

    But

    1) Lethal force can only be used if your life/3rd party life is in danger (imminent/has started and all that) - he had been lying there for a minute, so we can reasonably ask if his life was in danger, can't we?
    2) Proportionate force - Don't see a firearm in the attackers hands. OK. Maybe they have physical superiority (as per my second post), which would justify lethal force - but it's also possible they were leaving and no longer posed a physical threat.

    Again, not arguing one way or the other, but the video clip is a good example of the blurred lines for lethal force and how the courts may view that force after the fact.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Use of Deadly Force in Self-Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by WessonCountry View Post
    There's no need for the emotive language and accusations of 'ignorance'. I qualified my statements and mentioned the lack of sound - and suggested several times the single video angle was not perfect.

    it was simply an example of a grey area that speaks to the points raised in the video you shared.

    It's not 'propaganda' to mention that South Africa's guns laws have clearly defined parameters for when lethal force is legal and when it is not regardless of your personal experience.

    Keep it respectful, please.
    Guns are welcome here, high horses need to be checked in at the door.

    You mentioned the lack of sound, but where did you ‘suggest several times the single video angle was not perfect’?

    Respect here is earned, it is not something you get by joining.

  3. #13

    Default Re: Use of Deadly Force in Self-Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Kola View Post
    Guns are welcome here, high horses need to be checked in at the door.

    You mentioned the lack of sound, but where did you ‘suggest several times the single video angle was not perfect’?

    Respect here is earned, it is not something you get by joining.
    Thanks, mate.

    Don't really care who you respect.

    I apologized to Peace for derailing.

    Read my posts if you're confused.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Use of Deadly Force in Self-Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by WessonCountry View Post
    Thanks, mate.

    Don't really care who you respect.

    I apologized to Peace for derailing.

    Read my posts if you're confused.



    You really need to learn to read, it is a bit of a skill.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Use of Deadly Force in Self-Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by WessonCountry View Post
    Just to be clear, I'm not saying he should or shouldn't.

    But

    1) Lethal force can only be used if your life/3rd party life is in danger (imminent/has started and all that) - he had been lying there for a minute, so we can reasonably ask if his life was in danger, can't we?
    2) Proportionate force - Don't see a firearm in the attackers hands. OK. Maybe they have physical superiority (as per my second post), which would justify lethal force - but it's also possible they were leaving and no longer posed a physical threat.

    Again, not arguing one way or the other, but the video clip is a good example of the blurred lines for lethal force and how the courts may view that force after the fact.
    1. You don’t know if they were maybe doing anything else. Shooting at people as they were leaving.
    2. Again. Something could have happened that changed the situation.

    You are like a journalist inferring all kinds of stuff to sensationalise.

    What you are doing is not an argument, it is more creating a scenario without all the info. We call out the media for doing the same. It is not accurate and counter productive.

    And I would suggest debate instead of arguing.


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  6. #16

    Default Re: Use of Deadly Force in Self-Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Grobbie View Post
    1. You don’t know if they were maybe doing anything else. Shooting at people as they were leaving.
    2. Again. Something could have happened that changed the situation.

    You are like a journalist inferring all kinds of stuff to sensationalise.

    What you are doing is not an argument, it is more creating a scenario without all the info. We call out the media for doing the same. It is not accurate and counter productive.

    And I would suggest debate instead of arguing.


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    Sensationalizing what? I gave two examples of how things could have been to illustrate the point of grey area in the law. Nobody argued for or against the shooter.

    And yeah, creating a scenario because the thread is about deadly force in self-defense, and if you watch OP the video, several of the points can be contested either way in the twitter video I posted.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Use of Deadly Force in Self-Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by WessonCountry View Post
    Sensationalizing what? I gave two examples of how things could have been to illustrate the point of grey area in the law. Nobody argued for or against the shooter.

    And yeah, creating a scenario because the thread is about deadly force in self-defense, and if you watch OP the video, several of the points can be contested either way in the twitter video I posted.
    You made stuff up. Even admitting to assuming. You are presenting events in a way without all the info. That’s what I would categorise as sensationalising something.

    But I already see there is no way to get it through to you that you are making up a story without the complete info.

    Almost arguing for the defence of the attackers and against the person shooting. Maybe we must ad, “I put it to you” before each sentence.

    At least you got me interested to see the whole story of this encounter.




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  8. #18
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    Default Re: Use of Deadly Force in Self-Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by WessonCountry View Post

    Keep it respectful, please.
    I'll respectfully call you an idiot then, read my post again, I have been in such a situation and telling you how it works in reality land.

  9. #19

    Default Re: Use of Deadly Force in Self-Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Grobbie View Post
    You made stuff up. Even admitting to assuming. You are presenting events in a way without all the info. That’s what I would categorise as sensationalising something.

    But I already see there is no way to get it through to you that you are making up a story without the complete info.

    Almost arguing for the defence of the attackers and against the person shooting. Maybe we must ad, “I put it to you” before each sentence.

    At least you got me interested to see the whole story of this encounter.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Made stuff up? This is a thread about how the judiciary may interpret the use of lethal force. Who's defending the attackers? The only point I made was that a judge could reasonably make a call either way based on the footage... again, in reference to the OP. If you cannot see how others may interpret your actions, why should anyone trust you to make life or death decisions?

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Use of Deadly Force in Self-Defense

    Seeing as this thread has now totally lost it's original purpose of sharing a Mas Ayood knowledge bomb.

    With reference to the Twitter video whilst bearing in mind what ye good ol Mas had to say:-

    • The employee was not the one who initiated the incident
    • The employee had no means of retreat/escape
    • The employee was at a numerical disadvantage
    • The employee was in a position of weakness
    • It is conceivable that the thugs brandished weapons as they made entry to exert force and establish control/compliance


    On the face of it, there's enough data to support the idea that the employee had real reason to fear for his life and possibly that of other staff members in the store. So no, I would definitely not say this was attempted murder. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

    Remember, compliance does not guarantee safety.

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