Who Copied Who

**SoldierMan** · 22-11-2020, 16:40

So was scrolling down a link in another thread when I cam across a picture of a Glock frame with the slide removed... but when I read the text below it it said it was a SAR9.... But the insides look exactly like a Glock. I assume there are other guns which are the same?

Same deal with the slide and how the spring fits, how the firing pin mechanism fits and so on.

So who copied who, was it Glock that came up with the design or was it someone else.

Surely you can't just copy and paste another manufacturers design with a few changes and call it your own and put it on the market? Though in the world of copyright there seems to be a lot of that going around, not just in the firearms industry. But in this case it's you could probably swap out parts from a Glock to a SAR9 and they would work

It was from this link, scroll down for the picture https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...fired-handgun/

**janfred** · 22-11-2020, 17:01

Copyright, on average, only lasts about 20 years. Also, something copyrighted in Austria but not in China can be copied legally in China.

There is no such thing as a world-wide copyright; you have to copyright in every country you want to copy protection.

**SoldierMan** · 22-11-2020, 17:31

Originally Posted by janfred

Copyright, on average, only lasts about 20 years. Also, something copyrighted in Austria but not in China can be copied legally in China.

There is no such thing as a world-wide copyright; you have to copyright in every country you want to copy protection.

Interesting. I would have thought that Glock would've copyrighted the Glock design in the US though, seeing as that would have been a very large market for them.

But then I guess its a free for all if copyright only lasts 20 years. Personally I think 20 years is a ridiculously low time period. It's much longer in the book world as far as I know.

**A-R** · 23-11-2020, 19:20

Originally Posted by SoldierMan

Yeah but what made it stand out, was it that it was part polymer, or the safety system? From what I understand it done things that had never been done before.

Originally Posted by VNI

As far as I understand it, nothing mechanically on the Glock, was unique. The Browning tilting barrel mechanism, the polymer frame and striker-fired design had been done previously. I know Gaston Glock makes claim that the polymer he formulated was special in some way, but if you asked me how it compares to other manufacturers', I couldn't tell you.

To his credit he designed a phenominal pistol, but they matched it up with getting the right people to adopt and endorse it. Glock's branding is just as valuable as their designs. It's so valuable, they have trademarks on the LOOK of the pistol. They have no problem with people designing aftermarket parts, but if it violates trademark, they'll set the legal beagles loose. I know for example, the shape of the trigger guard, the beavertail and the position of the serrations have gotten manufacturers sued. Trademarks don't expire.

For that reason, even if you make an exact replica of the Glock, unless it does something new, it probably won't sell enough to warrant their attention.

I know they request and receive new patents with each generation, but I've not bothered to go look what those patents were for.

Yes, nothing new in principle. All the various components had been used before on individual pistols, but this was a unique combination of them all.

Most other pistols were designed and then the maker went looking for someone to buy it. Glock was already supplying other stuff to the Austrian army, when they requested submissions for their new pistol trails. Gaston Glock built it specifically to meet their specifications, so he was already 1 step ahead of his competition, who just submitted what they had. (A lot of credit should go to whoever was tasked with drawing up the specifications for the army.)

Interestingly, Gaston Glock came from a background where he manufactured the plastic tanks for automotive radiators. These tanks have to be able to withstand vibration, impact, pressure and heat, so any old plastic would just not do. He started off with lots of know-how in tough-duty polymer parts. Others are still catching up.

The parts that put off most noobs from buying a Glock (or copy) is the plastic frame and trigger. Interestingly, these are the most durable parts on the pistol. If any part does eventually fail, it is most likely a steel part (sights excluded).

And yes, the trade marked look (some may call it ugliness) can not readily be copied, except maybe in China or Pakistan. So the copies will have enough cosmetic changes to get by the IP rules. Being copied off the Gen 3 variants, the improvements on the Gen 5 series should be enough to set them apart functionally from the copies.

Glock could do worse than sell their Gen 3 models at prices comparable to the copies. That should really limit the appeal of the copies over the original. After all, their R&D and tooling cost should have been amortised loooong ago.

**Ds J** · 22-11-2020, 17:03

Have a look at the Sarsilmaz website. There is even a copy of a Baby Browning!

https://www.sarsilmaz.com/en/catalog...TIC-PISTOLS/13

**janfred** · 22-11-2020, 18:17

Originally Posted by SoldierMan

.....Personally I think 20 years is a ridiculously low time period. It's much longer in the book world as far as I know.

No. If you cannot make your R&D costs and a profit in 20 years, then let someone else try. If not, you'll get monopolies like Marconi had on anything radio. Also, time-limited patents drive innovation to stay ahead of the competition.

**SoldierMan** · 22-11-2020, 18:20

Originally Posted by janfred

No. If you cannot make your R&D costs and a profit in 20 years, then let someone else try. If not, you'll get monopolies like Marconi had on anything radio. Also, time-limited patents drive innovation to stay ahead of the competition.

I'm sure if you put your heart and soul into something new and R&D'd for years, only to have it copied 20 years later and sold for profit with next to zero R&D cost you might think again.

**atunguyd** · 22-11-2020, 18:29

There's also a possibility that the SAR guys licenses the design. That happens a lot too.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk

**A-R** · 22-11-2020, 20:24

The SAR (M12) steel pistol seems to be a copy from a Tanfoglio, which was copied and improved from the CZ75 line. A friend shoots one of these, a SA only variant, somewhat similar to a CZ75TS. It had a few hiccups when new, but has smoothed out nicely after a few thousand rounds.

Apparently the Glock Gen 3 patents have expired, so we can expect to see quite a few copies of these models. Brownells has a whole line of major parts in all sorts of configurations. We can expect to see Turkish copies in various flavours soon. Even those who don't like how a Glock grip "feels in the hand" can now be accommodated.

In or around 1980 Gaston Glock said "One day all pistols will be made this way". Well, he was not wrong...

**SoldierMan** · 22-11-2020, 20:34

For those in the know what exactly did Gaston Glock create that was new/revolutionary to the handgun at the time?

I'm unfamiliar with the first gen of Glocks so maybe they have changed only a little, I wouldn't know. Can I open up my Gen 4 today and see it?

Would appreciate any insight from you guys or will have to go searching.