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  1. #11
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    Default Re: New 308 rifle project musings

    I don't care about the rifle, you'll get that sorted. I like the short barrel idea for your application, which means lots of powder will be wasted if you load lightish bullets. You don't need speed or BC, load it up with 200 or 220gr flatbase bullets, mid-30gr of powder, seems like a lekker fit for the rifle you're planning.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: New 308 rifle project musings

    For my own learning input, if you do not mind why a bullet above 180 gr what is the benefits?
    I see more recoil.
    More cost per bullet.
    A greater rainbow affect to trajectory the day you do need to stretch the shot a bit.

    I am assuming you have solid reasons, open question to anyone.
    I am sure the answers will be beneficial in regard to the OP and his build, bullet choice etc

  3. #13
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    Default Re: New 308 rifle project musings

    S335, if it ever becomes available again, will burn very close to 100% in a 16" barrel behind a 150gn bullet. That was one of my criteria that I looked at. Normal loads would be from 150 gn to 180gn, simply since these are widely available.

    Yes, a thinner barrel may just work. It may also require more load development to get the best precision. I still want precision to be able to stretch the shooting distance when needed. A fat barrel makes this slightly easier. I like fatter barrels in general. The weight is not an issue, as a lot of weight will be removed by shortening it. Not a requirement that is cast in stone. The right opportunity may just happen with a normal barrel profile. Just not one of those pencil barrels please...

    What got me thinking along these lines was Treeman's shorty 303. Basically the same concept. Before I do the 308, I might just as well do a short 303 to test the concept. It already has a synthetic stock and low-mounted 2-8x scope on. Will do some calcs and see how a 16" (and other lengths) 303 will perform.

    My options in 308's include the following at the moment:
    1. Howa 1500 barrelled action. Probably the cheapest and lots of accessories available.
    2. CZ557 varmint synthetic.
    3. Tikka T3x CTR or similar.
    4. Ruger American. Accessories like mags etc may be a challenge. They make a few models with 16" barrels, but not in 308 AFAIK.
    5. Ruger Hawkeye Scout. Hmmm... I like this one a lot. Not too many of them around. Controlled feed as well, not that it matters much for this application. Would hesitate to cut this one.
    6. Remington 783. (Are they even still made now that Marlin belongs to Ruger?) Also simple yet effective. (I have never grown a liking in the Rem 700.)
    7. I could modify my RSA 308, add a mag, and use it in a new role. Might have to lighten the action a bit. The action machining may turn out costly. Not sure I want to go there, original RSA actions are getting scarce. (Then replace it with an umolested Howa 24" Varminter in it's current role.)
    8. I have a CZ 550 Varmint in 243. When the barrel eventually can't be set back any more, this may be a prime candidate for the shorty 308. Re-barreling may cost just as much as a new Howa barreled action. It has a detachable box mag already, but at the price CZ want for a 10-rounder, I may just reconsider.

    Choices, choices. Fortunately, I'm not in a hurry.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: New 308 rifle project musings

    Quote Originally Posted by A-R View Post
    S335, if it ever becomes available again..
    I've been hearing a rumour this week that it's packaged & ready to ship. Some shops hoping to have it by month end. Just that Somchem isn't talking about it for reasons known only to themselves.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: New 308 rifle project musings

    A-R I don’t think it’s my place to lecture you, but since you are not focusing bear with me.Powder burn is not what propels a bullet.Gas expansion is what does.Forget your 100% burn rate with S335 and use S321 in your QL, no muzzle flash since you will have a suppressor, and much cheaper, and you probably reload 223 as well.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: New 308 rifle project musings

    Quote Originally Posted by A-R View Post
    I already have a few hunting rifles in various configurations. Now I am considering the ideal Bushveld hunting rifle. The rifle is to be used mostly for walk-and-stalk hunting in typical bushveld terrain. Typically, it will be grabbed from the safe, transported a short distance by bakkie, quad bike or on foot, then the hunt starts. The hunter will usually be alone.

    The requirements are:

    1. Chambering: Definitely 7,6mm Creedmoor caliber. It's brand new and exciting, Hornady just announced it on the first of this month, and everybody wants one.

    (It is also the same thing as the old 1952-vintage 308 Win and it's 1954-vintage NATO Standard sibling.)
    I am already heavily invested in the 308, have everything, dies, cases, neck turning tools, assortment of bullets and another assortment of ammo. Compatible (7,62x51) ammo is also available from various sources. Ballistics are quite adequate for the intended purpose. There may be equal or better chamberings available, but I'll stick with the old and trusted for this one.

    2. Suppressor to be used at all times. I only have about 50% of my hearing left, so I want to protect the little that I have. My kids also insist on using suppressed rifles for hunting, and they are likely to use it more than myself.

    3. Barrel configuration: At present I'm leaning hard towards a bull barrel (about 22 mm muzzle diameter) shortened to around 16 inches (or 406 mm). The length is to accommodate the suppressor, still fit in the safe and rifle bag and be relatively handy around the bush. With 8" suppressor the length of barrel and suppressor will be around 24". This is as long as I'm willing to go. (A 21" - 24" barreled rifle with added suppressor is just awkward in the bush and in a vehicle.) Loaded with S335, all the powder will be burned within 16 inches (according to QL predictions). MV loss as compared to a 22" barrel will be about 200 fps, so with most loads it will still be very much useable. The upside of the lower MV will be that impact velocities at typical bushveld distances will be in the range where unbonded, old-school, cheap cup/core bullets perform best in terms of expansion, penetration and weight retention. The thick barrel may weigh more than a standard profile, but it has a few advantages, the primary one being some insensitivity to accuracy nodes and perfect load development. So, theoretically, it should group a variety of bullets and loads closer together than a thin barrel. The barrel will also take longer to heat up on long shot strings. This may be moot in the veld, but it will help when zeroing etc.

    4. Stock. I'm leaning towards one of the cheap Hogue rubberised injection moulded plastic stocks. Sure, it is ugly and flexes a lot, but it is quite comfy, still shoots pretty accurately and I will not cry if it gets scratched. The flexing issue can be attended to with some reinforcing. Upgrading to something better is always possible. The light weight is a plus.

    5. Balance. With the above setup, it is likely that the balance point (for one-handed carrying) of the rifle may be just in front of the mag. I like this, as it allows the use of extended mags. Various kits are available for the Howa 1500, so this is appealing. A 10-shot steel mag with steel bottom metal kit adds some versatility and extra capacity for when a herd of biltong or troop of baboons decides to charge. I am not quite convinced of the durability of the ATI plastic mag and bottom conversion kit yet.

    6. Sighting. A 3-9x40 or similar scope of decent quality should do the trick. Capped turrets may be useful for stretching it's legs on the occasional gong or far-away bob. Mind you, I have a Lynx 2-10x38 with low-profile capped turrets on another rifle that should do the job pretty well. 150gn SP bullets should be supersonic out to 600m from the shorter barrel, and this scope should enable me to hit steel out there without too much effort, so that seems to be the extreme limit of employment.

    The above leads me to lean towards a Howa bull-barreld rifle. There may be other suitable options, but I'm not very inclined towards butchering a Tikka or similar more expensive rifle.

    I could just lighten my current RSA 308 rifle, but it would still just be a single-shot. Having a few extra in the mag may be desirable when crawling through the thickets and bumping into something scared or aggressive like a bushpig. (I don't want to convert the RSA to mag feed, would rather use it to build some other custom tack-driver in an odd caliber like 6BR or whatever.)

    Your thoughts and input please?
    My Howa 308 with Hogue stock, 20 inch heavy barrel, Nikon 4-16 scope and reflex suppressor (reflex saves a few inches on overall length so it fits more easily in safe/case/bag/behind bakkie seat etc) ticked most of those boxes for several years. Recently put a GRS Berserk stock on which changed it quite a lot and shifted it away from your requirements but improved it in other ways. As long as you stick with the Hogue stock I think you'd be right on the button. Only shortcoming is that I found it started feeling heavy quite soon when carrying it, but then again I'm not very well muscled or strong and have shoulder issues.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: New 308 rifle project musings

    Quote Originally Posted by Messor View Post
    A-R I don’t think it’s my place to lecture you, but since you are not focusing bear with me.Powder burn is not what propels a bullet.Gas expansion is what does.Forget your 100% burn rate with S335 and use S321 in your QL, no muzzle flash since you will have a suppressor, and much cheaper, and you probably reload 223 as well.
    Good call. S321 works really well in my 20 inch barrel.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: New 308 rifle project musings

    Yes, S321 works well. I have also tried S341 and it has it's uses. They are also a real pleasure to load, since my powder measure throws them extremely consistently. However, I have found that S335 is way less temperature-sensitive than the ball powders. I have hunted and shot in ambient temperatures ranging from 0 to 40 deg C. In the 40 deg C weather, my S341 loads let me down. But that's one of the reasons for sticking with the 308. We have a wide choice of suitable powders, and it should shoot pretty well with all of them. The particular rifle should be willing to work well with a wide variety of loads, even if I may choose to stick with just 1 proven recipe.

    Yes Messor, I am not focussing on any one point in particular right now. That is intentional. I am trying hard to be open-minded and consider all the options and variables, with the view of systematically narrowing them down over time to where I can make a properly thought through decision.

    On the matter of reflex-silencers. I have examined and used a quite a few of them. I have built a few myself, still have 2 of them on my rifles and another on a carbine. They have their uses, strong points and weak points. Heat retention in the part of the barrel sitting inside is one of the negatives. Overall I don't think the extra complexity and weight is worth it. On a 308 I want at least 200mm of suppressor in front of the muzzle. Whatever sits behind the muzzle does not make much difference to the noise in my experience. This is my view at present, subject to change without notice, if or when new facts come to my attention.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: New 308 rifle project musings

    What got me thinking along these lines was Treeman's shorty 303. Basically the same concept. Before I do the 308, I might just as well do a short 303 to test the concept. It already has a synthetic stock and low-mounted 2-8x scope on. Will do some calcs and see how a 16" (and other lengths) 303 will perform.***********************YOU JUST HAVE NO IDEA HOW ABSOLUTELY AWESOME THIS CREATION IS.If I lived around the Kruger Park (I go every 3 years) - I really do believe that my .303 shorty would kinda be everything I could need to recreate the old .303 Boer reputation.I now have two shorties, a .458 and the .303 - I am not sure if I can tell the differance on Kudu downwards on effectiveness. The .303 seems to have longer legs.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: New 308 rifle project musings

    If you are trying to achieve something - a goal or effectiveness of the tool, I doubt that you will continue with the .308 project after you have experimented with the .303.
    After perfecting the load with the 174 gr bullet you will likely realize that you can not really get much better in regard to 30 cal and a budget. You could perhaps gain 80 fps or .25 of a inch or what ever over the required 150 m use,. You could also realize that a R800 rand box of interlocks needs to be replaced with a R1500 box of Bonded or Mono bullets to hold together.
    I honestly believe the .303 is all you need for closer range, it covers 90 % of everything at a price which is less than the cost of a new Lynx 3-9 scope. I really got the thought, message when using it for what it was built, " ah! this works" I do not need a .308, 30 06 - .458, or 12 G slug, this just works"

    There was also a great sense of satisfaction in taking a piece a shit, give me R350 for it rifle and making it into a "geese dave that thing works ey" + it has your 10 round mag.
    Only I wish is that i could have a personalized profile barrel, semi bull would be great, but then it would not be a scrap build princess.
    I just realized. while typing, I have a Musgrave K98 action ??? mmmn what about a K98 action and a semi bull barrel as a modern .303 calber rifle. Generous free bore and K98 strength with correct twist mmmmmnnnn, my .270 is really tired.

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