Accurate load for a pistol - pie in sky or a reality.

[treeman]

Posted in general and not reloading because I think its a general question.
So, I have never been much of a hand gun guy and even less of a pistol guy. Recently I got to know the pleasures of a good long barrelled revolver in so much as to acquiring 6 in short succession. (Thank you Theuns B for that costly introduction)

Pistols? Naaa mate, like a hammer or a screwdriver to me - very important, must have tools, but not much of interest there mate.
I have likely loaded/shot 100 x 1000s of them, but all in the "find a load that cycles and use it" - it’s a pistol, it’s a standard pistol, loose short barrelled with a lock up like a Soho whores marriage vows.
I have never believed much could be attained by fine tuning a load for a pistol and that accuracy was a kinda "look they rather close this group" meaning all can be covered by a hand. A magazine into a playing card at 20 ft with an off the shelf pistol of under R15000 was really good stuff.

Well as per my post asking about loads for 9 mm 147gr poly coated bullets using MS 200 (not much crowd help this time) I am busy working up a load for a 1000 red green and black bullets. I cannot get to the range at the moment and have to shoot on a piece of property that’s legal but not encouraged kinda thing. I am too busy at the mo and just carried the test rounds around in car till I got a break to go fire ten shots at my secrete place. No chroni or rest etc

I settled on 3.4 gr at 29,3 COL as a start load to feel recoil and test cycling of weapon.
I got a break today and quickly shot down to mates place and took some shots. Wind was howling and the mist was so thick that I needed to look over my shoulder every two seconds, eery stuff indeed.

First shot hit high on the old bucket and I aimed again same spot and could not see the 2nd hole. 3rd was right against rest a calibre to right, thought "ha ha got lucky" 4th one calibre down between rest of holes. Went to check target and saw 4 holes two touch and two 9 mm apart. Gees I felt good but acknowledged the luck. I loaded 4 more in mag and had a last look around, I have to admit I actually wished some zombie or such would come out this mist, with these rounds I was invincible
Put four more rounds into the old bucket and basically made a golf ball like hole in bucket with 1 hole way down low, likely because my eyebrows were now dripping down face, very wet mist.

So gist of question, what is accurate at say 15 ft for a shelf pistol?
How much does the load affect a pistol?
I do not want to chroni, measure or better this load, just load a thousand more.
Did I shoot better than ever today or are there some loads that just are soooo much better for a specific pistol?

[M43]

I own about ONLY sub 15K "Off the shelf pistols". Some were not even new when I bought them.

All are more accurate than I am. Even if a pistol is "loose" as you describe it; as long as it locks up the same for every shot in theory (and often in practice also) it can be stupid accurate.

How "nice" a trigger is and how expensive a gun is are not always indications of how accurate it can be. Sometimes you get factory standard guns capable of better accuracy than a tuned 40K target grade 1911. Its just one of those things.

[Ds J]

The more I practice the more accurate my handguns become, irrespective of the load.

I did test for accuracy once or twice, but found that practice has a bigger influence on accuracy than ammo type.

Handgun accuracy: I am happy to get golfball-sized groups at 10m off a rest.

[mic]

The type of bullet / load can have a huge influence on accuracy in handguns.
Due to budget constraints and time I have available to me, I cast my own lead 9mm bullets. It's a 128grain LEE round nose. These are sized to .357".

The difference in accuracy between my own lead bullets vs a 115 / 124 / 127 grain plated Frontier bullet is quite substantial. The lead bullets have a consistently tighter group than the Frontiers. At first I thought it was just me and my old CZ75 (which might have a bigger bore barrel), but then the wife also tested it and found the lead bullets much more accurate in her Shadow 1 as well as the S&W M&P9 and the Glock 17.

A mate of mine had a similar problem reloading for his Beretta CX4 ( i know it's not a handgun, but is still 9mmP). He swapped from 147gr RN Frontier to 147 grain FP Frontier and accuracy improved radically.
Everybody always think that "It's a handgun and accuracy does not matter THAT much" but the truth is that doing load development on a handgun is just as important than load development on a rifle. More so with a handgun because it needs to cycle reliably in the gun.

[treeman]

@Mic - yes my approach to pistols has been as you describe. Its just a pistol.

Yesterday I went from mentally knowing I would hit the target to think that I could possibly hit a specific point on target. Bit of a "oh wow - really" moment.

[pre 64]

Treeman , as far as accuracy expectations are concerned , you are spot on.
Just remember that you are using a platform with a shitty trigger [relative] , a short sight radius and trying to maintain a sight picture with the FA held out in the elements at arms lengh.
As a matter of interest , i did a little experiment with both my PO7 and Shadow 2 with loads using frontier bullets and my pet competition ammo over a rest at 15m. For comparison , i loaded up some other ammo as best i could , weighing cases , bullets , each propellant charge separately , neck tension perfect ect. The difference in group size was tiny.

On the other hand , i grew up shooting ISU [attaining EP colours] and 1 of the events was 50 shots at 50m with a .22 standing on your hind legs and using one hand. Yes , these pistols were specialised and here the choice of .22 ammo made a huge difference in accuracy. The top shooters even at club level] could keep all 50 shots in 'the black' [center part of target]. I forget the size of the black but it was about 6 inches.

I then moved to Natal and shot silouette [spelling] at the Mapstone range. Shooting a 44 Redhawk out to 200m required proper load developement.

[treeman]

and 1 of the events was 50 shots at 50m with a .22 standing on your hind legs and using one hand. Yes , these pistols were specialised and here the choice of .22 ammo made a huge difference in accuracy. The top shooters even at club level] could keep all 50 shots in 'the black' [center part of target]. I forget the size of the black but it was about 6 inches.

I then moved to Natal and shot silouette [spelling] at the Mapstone range. Shooting a 44 Redhawk out to 200m required proper load developement.

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Yes I recall that episode, measured every case, bullet and primer - you were very much 'thought so after wards"
Gees, time flies - 10 years back perhaps.

[414gates]

Accuracy potential with handguns to 10 meters can border on miraculous when you practice enough.

This is irrespective of the load, the velocity, or what components you use.

You say you have some revolvers - see if you can get the book by Ed McGivern. His 5 shots on a playing card in 0.4-something seconds still stands 89 years later.

Interesting facts :

1. revolvers have the capability of shooting faster than semi-auto's because they don't have to wait for slide lockup
2. a heavy revolver trigger spring shoots faster than a light spring

[Adoons]

Treeman. With my pistols (Glock 19's) my concern to get it cycled everytime. If I can hit an A5 sized target at 15 m off-hand I am happy. Then the idea of a 6 inch revolver bothered me for maybe some handgun hunting and plinking. I did not want to spend much as I was not certain that I am going to like it. So I bought a Taurus 689 (.357) for a few pennies to just get the feel of it. This forced me to get a proper rest made up for the revolver to get it sighted in and see where different factory loads print etc. As a proper handgun rest was now available I tried out the Glocks on it too. Slow and deliberate trigger work and seriously concentrating on the sights etc. Furthest I tried was at 25 meters. The groups from the pistols vs the revolver was a "much over muchness" scenario. So up to now the only handgun hunting I did was 4 warthogs with clean kills with the 9mmP Glock and the .357 lies somewhere in the safe. When out on problem animal control and the piggies are close, I always have my SD pistol on me and then it is used if the stalking time and shot presents itself. All where taken in less than 20 meters and fully broadside. So with my little experience, yes, pistols can be accurate. The marksmen are the problem. (Then came the Roni debate, but lets not get into it now except to state that the same pistol from a Roni suddenly becomes a lot more accurate.)

[treeman]

The marksmen are the problem. (Then came the Roni debate, but lets not get into it now except to state that the same pistol from a Roni suddenly becomes a lot more accurate.)

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Whats a Roni ????