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  1. #721
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    Default Re: Firearms Amendment Bill of 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by oafpatroll View Post
    I don't follow, please could you explain further?
    Oaf I have to look up the video that explains how it works but what I remember is that the votes and paperwork make it a done deal. Is is not a begging situation.
    If a certain amount of people in an area say they want freedom from the rest due to religious, historic or some such reason they can apply and it can be granted. As said it will be enforced internationally and obviously no country would ever be able to secede if it is up to the host nation.

    The presenter said WC sends up 600b annually and gets back 80b. I think that is nuff said.

  2. #722
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    Default Re: Firearms Amendment Bill of 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Meteor View Post
    Oaf I have to look up the video that explains how it works but what I remember is that the votes and paperwork make it a done deal. Is is not a begging situation.
    If a certain amount of people in an area say they want freedom from the rest due to religious, historic or some such reason they can apply and it can be granted. As said it will be enforced internationally and obviously no country would ever be able to secede if it is up to the host nation.

    The presenter said WC sends up 600b annually and gets back 80b. I think that is nuff said.
    Thanks for the explanation. Going to war wouldn't be required to stop this. The stoking up of a bit of 'ungovernability' amongst the EC biggest export would probably suffice. I also very much doubt that any player in the international community would go to bat for what the current regime would inevitably label as an attempt to 'bring back apartheid' by racists.

    Having said all of that, I'd move in a heartbeat if it ever came about. All you have to do to see the difference clean, rational governance makes is to drive from the EC to the WC. Only blind people aren't immediately struck by the difference.
    Last edited by oafpatroll; 21-07-2021 at 08:43. Reason: Improve the stupid ratio

  3. #723

    Default Re: Firearms Amendment Bill of 2021

    For those putting the files together, comments by Amnesty International:

    https://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/s...international/

    "Despite this, the unrest and looting continued in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng with many communities having to take on the role of protecting themselves, patrolling their areas and putting up barricades, as rioters tried to access some residential areas and shopping centres, as police failed to get the situation under control. “

  4. #724

    Default Re: Firearms Amendment Bill of 2021

    Have just sent my objections to csp. Bit late in the day but its done, using the recent looting as part of my argument. I sent to Dear SA long ago. It really is extraordinary to think that they'll still do it if they can despite the clear proof that when the chips are really down only armed citizens stand any chance of keeping the peace. Instead of attacking us they should be encouraging us.

  5. #725

    Default Re: Firearms Amendment Bill of 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by oafpatroll View Post
    Having said all of that, I'd move in a heartbeat if it ever came about. All you have to do to see the difference clean, rational governance makes is to drive from the EC to the WC. Only blind people aren't immediately struck by the difference.
    There you have it. That's what's driving it - the gatvol factor has been reached. I didn't say it would be easy, as no country has ever allowed part of it to secede easily, with the single exception of Malaysia/Singapore in 1963. But it has been done often enough and there are present examples of it shaping up eg Scotland, and Brexit is a form of secession, in that case from Europe, and precisely because of irreconcilable difference as to what type of governance is wanted. The UN recognises the right of people to go their separate way if such difference exists, as it does between the WC and the other eight provinces. I'll continue to support it until and unless I see good reason to change my mind. I won't let "the ANC and EFF won't allow it" deter me. After all, the idea is to get away from those buggers, not be intimidated by them.

  6. #726

    Default Re: Firearms Amendment Bill of 2021

    In writing about the independence movement I didn't intend to hijack the thread from it's original direction. But having gotten into it, let me just answer some objections thusly. To say that it will never happen is to surrender before firing a shot and that's not how battles are won. The 800K citizens who have committed to it can't all be guilty of hope porn any more than I am. "Uphill battle" is simply a reminder of a historical fact, but it hasn't prevented some from achieving it and is sure as hell not a good reason for us not to try. Dr Corne Mulder explains it better than I - listen to his YouTube talk to the Cape Town Press Club last November; it is very informative. He believes that it is achievable and I don't think he's more inclined to flights of fancy than I. We meet all the key UN requirements. There is no shortage of posts on Gunsite that reveal the writer's belief that we are facing social and economic disaster, pretty much the failed state that Corne Mulder says we are already in. Are we not even going to try to get out of it because "it will never happen?"

  7. #727
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    Default Re: Firearms Amendment Bill of 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Dick View Post
    In writing about the independence movement I didn't intend to hijack the thread from it's original direction. But having gotten into it, let me just answer some objections thusly. To say that it will never happen is to surrender before firing a shot and that's not how battles are won. The 800K citizens who have committed to it can't all be guilty of hope porn any more than I am. "Uphill battle" is simply a reminder of a historical fact, but it hasn't prevented some from achieving it and is sure as hell not a good reason for us not to try. Dr Corne Mulder explains it better than I - listen to his YouTube talk to the Cape Town Press Club last November; it is very informative. He believes that it is achievable and I don't think he's more inclined to flights of fancy than I. We meet all the key UN requirements. There is no shortage of posts on Gunsite that reveal the writer's belief that we are facing social and economic disaster, pretty much the failed state that Corne Mulder says we are already in. Are we not even going to try to get out of it because "it will never happen?"
    Funny thing is if you did not want to hijack the thread why did you post it??

    Most of the people who supports this independance movement..... SPAM threads, chat groups, advertising groups, facebook groups any group any EVERYWHERE.

    One of the reasons why I said previously, they should look at the legality of this whole "signature" thing, because how can the signature of a person who lives in JOHANNESBURG, be counted as a vote for "someone in THE WESTERN CAPE".

    I think you will get a big surprise should that referendum be allowed, there will be way less voters than signatures presented, because the rest of South Africa who signed this petition wont be there to vote, because they are not residing there.

    This movement claims to have almost a million signatures, I yearn to know exactly how many of those signatures are actually from the western cape...my wild guess would be only about 200k, but lets wait and see ....

    Sent from my Hisense Infinity H40 using Tapatalk

  8. #728

    Default Re: Firearms Amendment Bill of 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Karoobow View Post
    Funny thing is if you did not want to hijack the thread why did you post it??

    Most of the people who supports this independance movement..... SPAM threads, chat groups, advertising groups, facebook groups any group any EVERYWHERE.

    One of the reasons why I said previously, they should look at the legality of this whole "signature" thing, because how can the signature of a person who lives in JOHANNESBURG, be counted as a vote for "someone in THE WESTERN CAPE".

    I think you will get a big surprise should that referendum be allowed, there will be way less voters than signatures presented, because the rest of South Africa who signed this petition wont be there to vote, because they are not residing there.

    This movement claims to have almost a million signatures, I yearn to know exactly how many of those signatures are actually from the western cape...my wild guess would be only about 200k, but lets wait and see ....

    Sent from my Hisense Infinity H40 using Tapatalk
    Your first sentence is pointless sarcasm. But the answer is that I posted it here because this thread is about a political attack on our rights and I have always believed that only a political solution will address it. I am therefore "hijacking" only in the sense that secession is a very different line of attack than the immediate matter of fighting off the proposed amendments.

    Your second sentence has similarly sarcastic and dismissive overtones suggesting that those who support secession are in some way not "serious" people who have not thought it through. My experience has been otherwise. Those with whom I have discussed it fall 50/50 into two groups (1) those who support it and think it worth trying despite the obstacles and (2) those who support it in principle but think it not doable. I have yet to find anyone who'd rather remain in a unitary state governed by the ANC. I freely admit that my sample group is too small to be a reliable indicator of majority opinion, but it is a useful pointer.

    I'm also a realist and recognise that paper support might not translate into votes. That can't be known until it is tested, but I'd rather fail in the attempt than accept the inevitability of permanent ANC misrule without firing a shot. You are free to choose otherwise.

  9. #729
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    Default Re: Firearms Amendment Bill of 2021

    Moving back to the Firearms Amendment Bill of 2021, what's the next step now that deadline for comments on the ammendments has closed.
    My appologies in advance if this was discussed earlier in the thread.

  10. #730

    Default Re: Firearms Amendment Bill of 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
    Moving back to the Firearms Amendment Bill of 2021, what's the next step now that deadline for comments on the ammendments has closed.
    My appologies in advance if this was discussed earlier in the thread.
    Yep, good question. The other thing I've always known is that it's a numbers game. We know from experience that small numbers of protests are ignored. Indeed, numbers that look big compared with what is normally received with public comment, are ignored. We need overwhelming numbers, way more than the miserable 100K+ than we have seen. 150K is probably 5%. That let's government say that 95% have no objection. We should have had at least a million. Where are they? For that matter, has every member of Gunsite objected?

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