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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Monolithic Expanding Bullets, Weight and Velocity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Messor View Post
    People get confused on the subject because there is a whole heap of variables that comes into play, but when you sit and think about it logically it’s really quite simple.

    Now when people started making mono’s, they of course ran into the trouble of firstly trying to stabilize them, but more importantly getting the composition and nose cavity design correct in order to get optimal expansion. To calculate stability is the easiest thing in the world, so that should not be a factor at all, but copper is hard, I would venture a guess that by far the single biggest reason people advised to drop a bullet weight in copper is to get the speed up, so that the bullets open reliably.

    This unfortunately stuck with many people, but in reality it’s only applicable when you deal with specific bullets. To say one 165gr mono bullet won’t open up because another brand did not is incorrect, bullets all differ and act differently under certain impact velocities.

    You can go light with mono’s, because of their penetration potential, but forget not the heavier a bullet the more material, the more material the greater the potential of the nose cavity size, aka how big the bullet can open up when it expands, and that governs how big a permanent wound cavity can be created. If this was not so then we would shoot solids, but we don’t, we need that big frontal area.
    I think one also needs to consider that with each bullet weight and diameter, the way the bullet expands differs, so manufacturers have to try to make incremental changes to each type to get the same expansion characters across the range. And that gets tricky!

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Monolithic Expanding Bullets, Weight and Velocity.

    Story - PMP loaded Barnes X bullets in a premium line that was punted as the best ammo in Africa. Their experiment failed because they loaded the traditional weights in a lot of calibres. The bullets tumbled and poor accuracy was found. They later sold some of the bullets and I tried the 175BX in my 7x64. We shot one kudu cow with it and the bullet tumbled. What a mess - the whole carcass was blood shot on the entrance side. I have never seen something similar before.

    To make sure that the 1 in 12 twist 308's could effectively use his bullets, Gerard Schultz made them with a weight of 130gr. This ensured a stable bullet that killed effectively and had ample penetration. Nobody complained and brought home the biltong. Many reloaders do not have time to experiment with different weights and the lighter bullets worked well - why fiddle with a success story.

    The above is my reply to TStone's remark about a 150gr mono in the 308. Time has moved on from where GS Custom started and their advice of those days. The 150's would need a 1 in 10 twist and a lot of 308's have been supplied that twist. The 130's however would be the safer bet to advise a re-loader if unsure of twist and he can then hunt with the knowledge that the bullet will not fail at normal ranges.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Monolithic Expanding Bullets, Weight and Velocity.

    In my few dealings with Gerrie Schultz he made it very clear that he was right and everyone who differed from him was wrong even if they had practical results that backed up their opinions. If told that one of his bullets behaved in a manner different from what it was advertised to do, he simply put the blame on the user. For this reason I find it hard to take any advice from him very seriously.

    Peregrine bullets, as an example, list the appropriate minimum twist per bullet weight. Their recommendations does differ quite a bit from those of GS Customs. What also differ is their reaction to negative feedback from people using their bullets. They actually pay attention to customer feedback and do something about it. Instead of insisting that their bullet is perfect and the customer is incompetent. As an example, they changed their VRG-4 bullet line to the VLR-4 which expands much more readily at lower impact velocities(longer ranges).

    I am not suggesting that everyone start using 180gr mono-metal bullets in their .308 Winchester's but I have seen 165 - 180gr mono-metal bullets (both Peregrine and Barnes TSX) perform very well on game in this caliber. In a 1 in 14" twist .308 a 130gr bullet is a great choice but for a 1 in 12 twist I really believe that a hunter will be better served with a 150 grainer.

    A 175gr mono-metal bullet in a 7mm is an extreme example it will probably be equivalent to a 220gr .308" mono-metal bullet, I do not know if even a 1 in 8" twist will stabilize it properly.

  4. #14
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    Default Monolithic Expanding Bullets, Weight and Velocity.

    I have no experience using monolithic projectiles but while researching sources for .375W pills noted Hornady has a new line of them out called CX. I thought you guys who favor them might be interested. Here is the link to the product page. (Sort by product line from the drop-down menu):

    https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/#!/

    R/Griff

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Monolithic Expanding Bullets, Weight and Velocity.

    I have used the original GSC 130gn HP bullet in a 1:12" twist 308 shortly after Gerrie started making them. Mostly out of curiosity, but I was looking for a decent hunting bullet. They worked very well, so I thought that if the 130gn worked so well, the 150gn version would be better. It grouped very well, but penetration was actually less. That went against everything I thought I knew, so when I met Gerrie at a show I asked him. He gave a complicated explanation about gyroscopic stability factor and it's relation to bullet length. At the time it was all Greek to me. But the basic principle is that gyroscopic stability is related to bullet length, twist rate and a few other variables. Mono Cu bullets are about 30% longer than same weight lead core bullets, hence the need to drop the weights when switching to Cu, to get to a similar length and retain stability.

    This gyroscopic stability is not only relevant to the flight of the bullet to the target, but also to the behaviour of the bullet after impact, inside the target. A normal Cu cup / Pb core bullet usually loses a few (30 - 50) % weight on impact, and also quickly lose a lot of length on impact. The reduction in length significantly increases the stability of the bullet inside the target, helping it to resist tumbling and veering off a straight line. A typical expanding mono Cu bullet loses almost no weight and only a little length. This does not help bullet stability as much as with a cup/core type, so more stability is needed to start with. That is why the 130gn GS bullet penetrates deeper than the 150gn version. It penetrates straight and with the mushroom pointing forward. The 150gn version often tumbles after impact and travels in an unpredictable way, often off the straight line.

    I have also seen the same thing happen to other makes and types of mono Cu bullets, so this issue is not exclusive to GSC.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Monolithic Expanding Bullets, Weight and Velocity.

    Here is my own experienced with monolithic bullets shot from a Remington 700 SPS 20" .308Win

    I've used the 171gr VLR5 and 167gr VLR4. One for target and the other for hunting. The key advantage of those two bullets are that they shoot the same POI if you load them with the same COL and powder charge. The VLR5 being significantly cheaper I used that for practice with my rifle and the VLR4 was for hunting. Same POI and same trajectory over distances, so the practice translates perfectly from target to hunting. I found a node that consistently shot 0.3 to 0.4moa groups at a 100m with a MV of 2600fps from the 20" barrel. Very impressive indeed. I shot a couple of impala and a big BWB bull with those and the bullets did their job well. I was not able to recover any of them so I cannot comment on expansions, but judging from the size of the wound channels and exit holes, I'd say they expanded great.

    I've now moved on to another product, which is the 165gr LRH kriek monolithic. With that bullet I managed to hit a node that shoots a one hole group at 100m with a MV of 2650fps from the 20" barrel. I have yet to test it on game, but judging from what I've seen from other people shooting other calibers with the same bullet, I'm pretty confident of how they will perform.

    The general recommendation for a monolithic bullet is to go subtract 15% of the weight of a lead core bullet and pick a mono bullet closest to that number. The reason for that being that copper is less dense than lead, so the same diameter and length bullet will end up being lighter. Monolithic bullets handle higher MV better and some need that extra speed for reliable expansion.

    I'm not going back to lead core bullets any time soon. I've seen the advantages that a monolithic bullet brings and it is absolutely the future of hunting bullets for general plains game IMO.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Monolithic Expanding Bullets, Weight and Velocity.

    Interesting thread to me as i still live in the dark ages of cup and core bullets where the topic was light vs heavy vs bonded and so on.
    When my bullets stop killing animals reliably i will consider going over to the use of mono"s.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Monolithic Expanding Bullets, Weight and Velocity.

    Quote Originally Posted by pre 64 View Post
    When my bullets stop killing animals reliably i will consider going over to the use of mono"s.
    We both know that is not going to happen.

    But monos do have advantages in some situations, just like they have disadvantages in some situations. For my use the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. For you, the opposite might be true.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Monolithic Expanding Bullets, Weight and Velocity.

    Quote Originally Posted by pre 64 View Post
    Interesting thread to me as i still live in the dark ages of cup and core bullets where the topic was light vs heavy vs bonded and so on.
    When my bullets stop killing animals reliably i will consider going over to the use of mono"s.
    There are other factors to consider as well. Even though the amount of lead is minimal, I'd still prefer not to ingest any lead from the meat of the animal. Monos also open up your shot angle options because of its ability to punch through heavy bone structure.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Monolithic Expanding Bullets, Weight and Velocity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cbotha15 View Post
    Monos also open up your shot angle options because of its ability to punch through heavy bone structure.
    This is the main reason I use mono's. Their ability to penetrate through heavy bone or the rumen allow me to take shots from angles that I would not take with cup and core bullets. When I hunt for myself for table meat, I am willing to wait for the perfect angle (or close to it) though.

    That extra penetration is also extremely handy when you need to down a wounded animal running away from you at a less than perfect angle.

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