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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Pointing a firearm

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFW View Post
    Pointing should not be a part of your pre engagement strategy....ever.
    Plus One

  2. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by treeman View Post
    *******************************
    Same or similar situation, many times, really a lot of times.
    I picked up issues twice in really a lot of times.
    Once when I dropped the guy using the butt of the 45ACP between the eyes, I was getting close to shooting, but saw a gap during the grappling and nailed him real hard between the eyes on the forehead.He was handed to police in regard to breaking into vehicles and stealing my trucks battery. He laid various charges and I ended up in court twice. The charges against me were assault and use of firearm was barely mentioned.
    He was given bail for the reason I apprehended him and stabbed a policeman shortly there after. I heard he died a few weeks later, do not know if it was connected to the crime life style he lived. My case never came up again.

    The second incident was a shop robbery and stabbing that I got involved in. I ran the guy down and got him a few times, but he was the wildest man I ever confronted. I got him a few times, he was weaker than I and also slower, but he had no off button, I hit my hand into big swollen lumps and when he drew his knife I broke a few pot plants on his head - no off switch in his make up.
    He broke a bottle at one stage, had a Okapi in one hand and a bottle neck in the other, I drew my firearm at this point. The double left - right attack was beyond my abilities and he got me(my clothes) with the bottle.
    I wear loose hanging clothes and he caught my top with the bottle and ripped upwards pulling the top over my face - I shot him when the firearm contacting his body. The weapon was bumped down and the barrel was along his body with the bullet traveling in at his hip and entering, exiting his leg a few times. He fell back and landed knees towards me and I shot him again in at knee and out at buttocks.
    I can not explain, justify or argue the second shot, it was just a follow through generated by being in a basic animal frame of mind due to preceding circumstances.
    A case was opened, and my firearm taken in. I got my weapon back after a month and the docket had "decline to prosecute" written on it. It was nearly 2 decades ago, but I think the matter was reopened 3 times and came back "decline to prosecute". I was told that someone was gunning to get me for the second shot. That second shot was a mistake that nearly cost me.

    I was later told that I had shot a ex old school cops "pet" and he, the cop had it in for me. I was blocked when I tried to trace him. Those old cops had dirty power.

    There you have two examples of what can happen, though I think I was also very lucky in my encounters.

    Mentioned as for example of what can happen.
    2 out of 3 ain't bad.

    Still stupid though.

  3. #13
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    Port Elizabeth
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    Default Re: Pointing a firearm

    Quote Originally Posted by Springer View Post
    2 out of 3 ain't bad.

    Still stupid though.
    *****************************************
    Yes, I came out army and craved confrontation, did many stupid things, many. Volunteered for work with Narcotics boys, Illegal firearms dept and any such "exiting" stuff.
    I try teach my my boy from every stupid thing I have done.

    In regard to OP, there is in my opinion no guarantee's when you engage using a firearm, legal, illegal and interpretation of such is grey and open to abuse and misinterpretation - even popular opinion. Look at the farmers in this regard, arrested, held in prison for what appears absolutely justifiable use of firearms.

  4. #14

    Default Re: Pointing a firearm

    Thanks for all the answers thus far, many of the answers mention “use” and “self defense” whereas the Act uses the words “good reason” in specific reference to pointing. Would pointing a firearm require the same justifications as firing it? Surely if the legislature intended there be no reason other than self defense to point a firearm “good reason” would be omitted in favor of “private defense”.

    The Criminal Procedure Act allows for a citizen in affecting an arrest to use force which is “…reasonably necessary and proportional in the circumstances to overcome the resistance or to prevent the suspect from fleeing…” when would pointing a firearm meet this requirement?

    In my hypothetical situation the choice is point the firearm or lose the phone.

    Ps: I’m writing this using my phone.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by treeman View Post
    *****************************************
    Yes, I came out army and craved confrontation, did many stupid things, many. Volunteered for work with Narcotics boys, Illegal firearms dept and any such "exiting" stuff.
    I try teach my my boy from every stupid thing I have done.

    In regard to OP, there is in my opinion no guarantee's when you engage using a firearm, legal, illegal and interpretation of such is grey and open to abuse and misinterpretation - even popular opinion. Look at the farmers in this regard, arrested, held in prison for what appears absolutely justifiable use of firearms.
    But you've waffled on again, but still not answered the question. Do you know the answer?

  6. #16
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    Jan 2019
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    Default Re: Pointing a firearm

    Quote Originally Posted by DDB View Post
    In my hypothetical situation the choice is point the firearm or lose the phone.
    I understand what you mean, the "good reason" refers to, to defend your life against an unlawful attack, and remember you cannot defend against property, so by pointing your firearm at the BG that grabbed your phone, that’s NOT good reason because you are now trying to use your firearm to protect/defend property.

    The FCA also further states: It is an offence to— (a) cause bodily injury to any person or cause damage to property of any person by negligently using a firearm, an antique firearm or an airgun; (b) discharge or otherwise handle a firearm , an antique firearm or an airgun in a manner likely to injure or endanger the safety or property of any person or with reckless disregard for the safety or property of any person; or (c) have control of a loaded firearm, an antique firearm or an airgun in circumstances where it creates a risk to the safety or property of any person and not to take reasonable precautions to avoid the danger.

    Personally, just LOSE THE PHONE.

  7. #17
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    May 2014
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Branden88 View Post
    I understand what you mean, the "good reason" refers to, to defend your life against an unlawful attack, and remember you cannot defend against property
    That is not true. You may prevent unlawful apprpriation of your property. If the criminal escalates it by using force that will constitute an attack in progress and you can cap his ass.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Pointing a firearm

    Quote Originally Posted by FFourie View Post
    That is not true. You may prevent unlawful appropriation of your property. If the criminal escalates it by using force that will constitute an attack in progress and you can cap his ass.
    Okay when you say "prevent", in which manner are you going to prevent the BG form taking your "property" ?

    Force is also a very loose term.

  9. #19
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    May 2017
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    Mpumalanga
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    47
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    25

    Default Re: Pointing a firearm

    You most probably end up in jail and your name changed to Felicity or something like that with our justice system. Insurance is for property. A gun is to defend life, human life. Animals are property as I remember.
    What stops the criminal from stating he was fleeing the scene, scared for his life as a guy with a gun was chasing him? He then defended himself against you?
    What if you point the guy that just stole your iPhone 13, with your super sexy tricked out SD handgun with a 2.5lb trigger pull and have an AD? I am sorry or Oops aint gonna help you then.
    Our laws and justice system are broken. So too is Murphy always around and willing to assist anybody with a accident or mishap. So don’t do it. A gun isn’t a tool to threaten someone or intimidate. Its a weapon meant to kill/take and end life.

  10. #20
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    Mar 2014
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    River Club, Sandton
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    991

    Default Re: Pointing a firearm

    Pointing of firearm
    [37] S V SAM
    1980 (4) SA 289
    Having parked his car in a street in Hillbrow, Johannesburg, the complainant opened his car, took out certain blankets, which were in his car, and put them into another car which belonged to his employer.
    The appellant, a cafe-owner, saw what he was doing and thought that he was committing theft.
    He then pointed a firearm at the complainant and held him up until the police arrived.
    It then appeared that the appellant had made a mistake since the complainant had not committed any theft: he had removed blankets from the one car to the other with the consent of the owner of the blankets.
    On the strength of these facts the appellant was charged in a magistrate's court with contravention of Section 39(1) of the Arms and Ammunition Act 75 of 1969, which made it an offence to point a firearm intentionally at somebody else.
    The magistrates convicted him of this offence.
    He then appealed to a provincial division against his conviction.

    Finding:
    In his findings, Justice Myburgh concluded that the appellant believed that he caught a thief red handed and did not have any intention to commit a crime by pointing a firearm at another person.

    Appeal was upheld.


    The use of FORCE to apprehend a person is illegal; using the firearm to detain and immediately calling the cops shouldn't get you into trouble.

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